[00:00:00] Sé Reed: Is this thing on?
[00:00:04] Jason Tucker: I think it is. This is episode number 477 of WPwatercooler WordPress. What’s the alternative?
[00:00:16] Sé Reed: I like that there’s no question mark there.
[00:00:19] Jason Tucker: I’m Jason Tucker. I’m the one that makes the graphics. Thank you very much. You can go to my website at jasontucker. blog
[00:00:26] Sé Reed: I’m Sé Reed, I’m the one who pokes things. That’s Sé Reed Media on whatever you want.
[00:00:33] Jason Cosper: And y’all know who it is, it’s your boy, Jason Cosper, back at it again on the world’s most influential WordPress podcast.
[00:00:40] Sé Reed: we’ve also won the
[00:00:41] Jason Tucker: and that podcast can be found wherever it is you want to listen to a podcast. And you can come hang out with us in our discord over at WP, or at watercooler slack. lol.
[00:00:51]
[00:00:52] Jason Tucker: How you doing?
[00:00:56] Sé Reed: those things make me laugh. See, I also make the graphics.
[00:01:00] Sé Reed: you must do marketing because that’s what
[00:01:04] Jason Tucker: Oh no, I have to do marketing too?
[00:01:08] Jason Cosper: yeah.
[00:01:27] Sé Reed: discussing this topic.
[00:01:28] Sé Reed: What’s the alternative? Non rhetorically. But Jason Tucker specifically has been, as he does, porting his blog around. He loves to move that blog. He never settles in, just keeps moving the blog around. Break all the SEO.
[00:01:46] Sé Reed: Yeah, we have all of that to, yeah, do not find me. I am not where, not at this address.
[00:01:53] Sé Reed: But I didn’t tell you all that I had a conversation this week with a designer, right? There’s always the whole, what’s a web designer? What’s a web developer? Are you a designer? Are you a developer? Who builds the websites? What is a website? And I apologize in advance for my coughing and whatever, it’s just. It is what it is here. But the designer is working, building out a magazine site. And they are working with someone’s, I think it’s their son, right? The magazine person’s son is in school, is in developer school. I didn’t, I ask what kind of like languages or whatever, but like just they’re developer school, whatever that means.
[00:02:47] Sé Reed: And they want to, that, that, that son wants to use WordPress, because of course they do. And the designer is I don’t want to use WordPress. It takes forever to set up. I don’t have that kind of time. I only have these 10 hours a week allocated. It’s going to take forever to get set up.
[00:03:05] Sé Reed: And we have this whole I try not to be like, Dogmatic, I suppose is the right word, about WordPress, right? When I was doing business advising and helping people set up their very beginning small business websites if they were on a Wix site, or they were on a Squarespace site, or they, that was something that they, that was really at their level I’m like, start there, that’s fine.
[00:03:33] Sé Reed: But so I got, this is obviously not that, right? This is a magazine website. So I got into this discussion about what, how to make that decision about what platform to use. So the designer is I want to use Webflow. And I’m like cause it’s like right out of the box, there’s, you can do all the things, whatever that is.
[00:03:56] Sé Reed: And I, I don’t know enough about Webflow to provide a counter argument about are there custom post types like what is the user log on situation, like all of these different things that one might think would go with a magazine website. That’s also a print magazine. The funny thing is that they’re like, whatever, I don’t have time to figure out WordPress in general.
[00:04:22] Sé Reed: I’ve used it before, but to make it into the design. And I thought that was really funny because I think what everyone does, and actually, I don’t think, I know what everyone does is they just look at the site, like they, like people who are not developers, they’re just like, what does the front end look like?
[00:04:41] Sé Reed: Does that look like a website, quote unquote. But it’s the backend that matters. Like the backend is where you do all the stuff, like the front end, they all look the same. Tucker, you were talking about how you might as well have a static HTML site, like at this point. And it’s like a static HTML site can look exactly the same as all the other sites as whatever, it all look exactly the same.
[00:05:11] Sé Reed: So I didn’t really like. I was like I’m trying not to overextend my boundaries and be like, Oh, I can help you how to figure out you need help implementing it. No, I’m like, no, I’m not doing that anymore. So I didn’t do that. I’m proud of myself. So I just listened to their complaints, essentially about WordPress and didn’t try to WordPress them.
[00:05:38] Sé Reed: Didn’t try to argue with them about it. And basically it wasn’t even that Webflow is so great. It’s just that WordPress is, for them, was too much to just get started. That was really interesting because I think it was yesterday, Tucker, you were talking about your recent process, which, if you’ll talk about that next, but you said that same thing.
[00:06:00] Sé Reed: You’re like, out of the box, it doesn’t do. X, Y, Z, it’s just, here’s some posts on a website. And I just thought that was really interesting because I think it’s that first it’s not, it’s for so many people when building a website, it’s not about, it’s not about the longevity of the website.
[00:06:22] Sé Reed: It’s not about how does this get used over time? It’s not about what’s the process. It’s just like, how do you get the website up with some stuff there? Looking a certain way. And that, that satisfies people’s needs. There’s no need for that, even though three months later, they’re like, wow, this is a mess, or this doesn’t make any sense, or how they don’t have this feature at all, I can’t expand.
[00:06:47] Sé Reed: So anyway, I just
[00:06:49] Jason Tucker: Even the,
[00:06:50] Sé Reed: your thing,
[00:06:51] Jason Tucker: even to jump off what you’re saying about the back end side of things, the dashboard, the, however you want to define that, the, those are very opinionated. So there’s a level of expectation that is is already set that you have to figure out. So for instance about nine months ago or so I switched over from, and blogs, I’m not trying to sell anything.
[00:07:14] Jason Tucker: I’m not trying to build a newsletter site. I’m not trying to
[00:07:17] Sé Reed: really basic sites, they’re
[00:07:19] Jason Tucker: Yeah just a basic site.
[00:07:21] Sé Reed: pages.
[00:07:23] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Pages and
[00:07:24] Sé Reed: There’s your about page, I’ve read your site because they’re they’re very wholesome, simple blogs,
[00:07:31] Jason Tucker: Huh.
[00:07:32] Sé Reed: and so
[00:07:33] Jason Tucker: It’s a cat blog without a cat.
[00:07:36] Sé Reed: But that’s what makes it really interesting though because you’re moving something so simple and so you’re having that experience even at the baseline level, right?
[00:07:44] Sé Reed: What you would think would be the vanilla install for WordPress versus The vanilla install for all these different alternatives. So I think it’s actually a really good comparison for that immediate Onboarding like payoff right to be able to see exactly what it is that’s different from what you have at the beginning.
[00:08:07] Sé Reed: So anyway, you
[00:08:07] Jason Tucker: Yeah. So pretend that you’ve already migrated the site over. Now you’re in this opinionated space where for instance, a micro. blog that uses Hugo CMS and their setup is very like everything’s text based, you might as well just be in a text editor, just editing text for everything, but you upload your
[00:08:30] Sé Reed: Wait, what text Word TinyMCE, or text Markdown?
[00:08:36] Jason Tucker: Markdown. Yeah, it’s all
[00:08:38] Sé Reed: Why is everything Markdown?
[00:08:40] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Markdown is awesome if you get good at it, but with that markdown, you you go in and you upload an image and you find yourself getting a markdown image tag to paste someplace. And you’re like, Oh, okay, this one’s a new one for me.
[00:09:00] Jason Tucker: Let me paste the image in there. And then if you want to modify it, you can modify it or whatever. If you want to make it left or right or whatever, but you’re essentially editing HTML or Markdown, but then you get into something like ghost, which is my most recent place that I’ve landed and ghost, it says, here’s a browse button to upload an image.
[00:09:23] Jason Tucker: You’re like, okay. So I browse. I pick the image, I upload it, and they’re like, here’s your image. And you’re like, but wait, I want to make changes to it. And they’re like no, there’s no making changes to it. Here is your image. And you’re like, oh, okay. But then turns out if you go into changes what sizing, or cropping, any of that stuff.
[00:09:48] Jason Tucker: Yeah,
[00:09:48] Sé Reed: that in
[00:09:49] Jason Tucker: You get none of that, but you can, for a small fee, there’s this thing called Pintura that you can enable. And that thing. It gives you like some type of interface that you can use to make changes to it. But unfortunately, in order to use that I think the hobbyist version is 149 a year
[00:10:16] Sé Reed: Wait, so this is an add on to, it’s an add on for ghost.
[00:10:22] Sé Reed: So Ghost has a whole add on world also.
[00:10:26] Jason Cosper: They do it’s not as extensive as WordPress is. At that point you’re paying 149 a year, just get a subscription to Photoshop CS, just pay for whatever
[00:10:42] Sé Reed: That’s actually more expensive than 149 a year.
[00:10:45] Jason Cosper: Sure. That’s three months of a baseline Adobe.
[00:10:51] Jason Cosper: pay, pay for whatever the analog to to Photoshop is an affinity.
[00:10:56] Sé Reed: Canva. Cause that’s what you received.
[00:10:59] Jason Cosper: exactly. Crop, crop your images there, like basically before you get them up to the CMS Tucker, also, you were saying that there isn’t really a media library in
[00:11:12] Jason Tucker: the media library is your computer and you’re pushing browse and you’re picking an image.
[00:11:17] Sé Reed: Oh,
[00:11:18] Jason Tucker: So we used
[00:11:19] Sé Reed: so interesting. So you’re like, there’s no Oh, this image already exists on your blog. It’s so now when you upload
[00:11:28] Jason Tucker: another image.
[00:11:29] Sé Reed: does it do what the WordPress does with the the dash one dash two thing
[00:11:33] Jason Tucker: Honestly, I don’t know. Because I haven’t even looked at what the files look like on the back end of it, but the idea of not being able to select an image that you’ve already uploaded is very weird because you’re just going I’m uploading a new image. It might be the same file name or not, but here you go.
[00:11:52] Jason Tucker: This is what I end up with. And you’ve essentially having to upload a new image each time. And the thing is like looking in the ghost forums, for instance, there’s people that are talking about having having a media library type of situation. They’re all people coming from WordPress who are expecting these sorts of like basic things in using a website interface that there’s just no media library. And so you’re like, Oh, okay. So what do I do now?
[00:12:24] Sé Reed: there’s media libraries and constant contact and like MailChimp, yeah.
[00:12:29] Sé Reed: just WordPress that like, has oh, here are the images you’ve uploaded before. It’s Canva has that, right? Heck, Adobe has that. Everybody’s got that it’s interesting that it’s it’s that bare bones.
[00:12:45] Sé Reed: And then you can do the add ons.
[00:12:47] Jason Cosper: Yeah, it’s it is pretty interesting how just how like bare bones that Ghost is. I’ve been using it for a project. I just to explore what’s available outside of WordPress, I’m building a website. For my wife’s podcast, she’s been running that since 2021.
[00:13:17] Jason Cosper: They’ve just been running off of previously it was anchor. fm. Now it’s Spotify for podcasters. And she’s looking to consolidate on something that she runs. So she doesn’t have to lean. On all of that stuff and just centralize all of that, and I could have used WordPress, but I was just like, Hey, let’s see what’s out there.
[00:13:44] Jason Cosper: Let’s see what’s available. I might still settle on WordPress. Cause there are some things that I find frustrating and annoying about ghost, but It’s interesting because with Ghost Ghost was written as a place to post originally blog entries. Now, like it’s shifted towards newsletters.
[00:14:10] Jason Cosper: There’s more newsletters have into focus and taken over that space a little bit from blogs. So it’s. Interesting to see that shift, but it’s also interesting since there is like a newsletter component there they have membership stuff built into the site.
[00:14:35] Jason Cosper: This isn’t like you have to go out and add, find a membership plugin, find one of the dozen membership plugins out there that you like it’s no. That’s just taken care of. In Ghost, is.
[00:14:52] Sé Reed: It’s
[00:14:54] Sé Reed: In Ghost.
[00:14:56] Jason Cosper: yeah, Tom is saying that Ghost was actually designed and developed to be the anti WordPress, like back to blogging basics.
[00:15:04] Jason Cosper: And
[00:15:04] Sé Reed: It’s like classic press, but not forked. It’s like when it’s Oh yeah.
[00:15:11] Sé Reed: I just want it. We just want to like, keep it simple. And then they should have called it KISS. That would have been good. Keep it simple,
[00:15:17] Jason Tucker: This is like a stripped down version of wordpress. com as the interface. It looks nothing like anything else. It’s just, it is its own kind of thing. There’s a big button on there that’s, again, more opinionated stuff. There’s a big button on there that says connect to Stripe. What’s that?
[00:15:34] Jason Tucker: Guess what? You’re using Stripe for your newsletter. And then it says you want your newsletter? Click here to set up Mailgun. They’re like, oh, do you want to use another mailing system? No. You’re using Mailgun. Now, if you want to code your own, go for it, but you’re getting Mailgun and
[00:15:52] Sé Reed: It’s interesting from a partnership perspective, right? Like in terms of because I would assume obviously Stripe comes with fees, right? So
[00:16:03]
[00:16:04] Sé Reed: Benefiting from that. And then, I’m assuming Mailgun is not it is, does it have a free level? I think it has a free level, but I don’t remember.
[00:16:13] Sé Reed: But
[00:16:14] Jason Tucker: small one.
[00:16:15] Sé Reed: yeah, it’s send one notice to 10 people every month. You can do that for free. We don’t mind. There’s a min threshold that you have to hit before they want to charge you the, whatever it is, 35 bucks a month or whatever the, their smallest amount is. But yeah,
[00:16:30] Sé Reed: that that’s interesting from a partnership perspective that like Ghost is making those choices for you, but it’s not, it’s for them, right? It’s with no benefit to them. So they actually don’t even link off to those websites. So there’s not like there’s like an affiliate link or anything
[00:16:48] Sé Reed: there is
[00:16:49] Jason Tucker: there is not. There is not. No, there is not. That they’re just going you’re going to click on this. You’re going to go and type in on another web browser tab, Mailgun, and you’re going to go sign up for an account.
[00:17:04] Sé Reed: okay,
[00:17:05] Jason Tucker: And that’s it.
[00:17:05] Sé Reed: now I have to go to research about whether Ghost has established partnerships. It, it doesn’t make sense that,
[00:17:12] Jason Tucker: There’s two developers.
[00:17:14] Sé Reed: I know, but it doesn’t make
[00:17:15] Jason Tucker: That’s it.
[00:17:17] Sé Reed: would be that choice made Without that sort of
[00:17:23] Jason Tucker: Yeah. The other part Marketing is just like for bullshit anyway.
[00:17:27] Sé Reed: Like who cares about that anymore?
[00:17:28] Jason Tucker: but like Zapier, Zapier is the built in automation tool for it. And if you want to do any other automation, you’re using webhooks, but you’re using webhooks for everything, if that’s what you’re going to end up doing. And they don’t support, they only support two two social media platforms X and Facebook.
[00:17:52] Jason Tucker: Those are your two and there’s no mastodon. There’s no even like people are asking about it. Nope. There’s nothing.
[00:17:59] Sé Reed: based like Facebook? Is that why? Because they’re going to
[00:18:03] Jason Tucker: don’t know. Like you can use a webhook and you can you can do a webhook chain to get it to do its stuff, but
[00:18:10] Sé Reed: See okay. Everything that you’re saying, it’s first of all, it’s out of the box. But second of all, it’s not because you’re having to do web hooks and markdown. Oh yeah.
[00:18:20] Sé Reed: easier? Is it simpler for the user?
[00:18:23] Jason Cosper: Ghost isn’t Markdown it’s editor is a little more medium where like you highlight the text and you can a little kind of tool tip pops up where it’s like bold, italic, et cetera. So what, like when you highlight text on Slack or Discord as well. Micro. blog did do markdown. That was its primary text.
[00:18:50] Jason Cosper: But it, it has a gooey wrapper around
[00:18:56] Jason Tucker: Huh.
[00:18:56] Sé Reed: wasn’t it? Wasn’t Ghost Markdown first? Pretty sure it
[00:19:00] Jason Cosper: so,
[00:19:01] Jason Tucker: Might be, but I know you can type in Markdown and you’ll like inline trans, whatever, change it.
[00:19:09] Sé Reed: They built a GUI. I love
[00:19:11] Jason Tucker: Yeah, the thing is for instance, in Ghost, there’s blocks in a way. So you can type in slash something and then for instance, slash YouTube, and then it’ll give you a YouTube thing that you can then paste into. There’s no moving the block around or making columns or doing any of that.
[00:19:29] Jason Tucker: There’s none of that. But you do have the basics of a slash command with something to add, like a button, so you can type slash button, and then you can fill in the button, put in the the link for it, and then you’re done.
[00:19:42] Sé Reed: So who’s building the ghost Gutenberg plugin? Sorry, I just think
[00:19:49] Jason Tucker: just need, they need a, they need an image editor first, and then they need a, They need an image editor first of some sort, other than the one that’s the Pintura thing that you have to pay for. And then they definitely need some type of media management. Even if it’s just select an existing thing that would
[00:20:09] Sé Reed: need an image editor before you need a
[00:20:12] Jason Tucker: I’m just saying those are, like, the two things that I’m seeing so far that it needs. But what I will say, if you’re someone like Cosper and I, who are thinking about playing around with this, is take a website and your collection of domains that you’ve purchased and never did anything with, And go and pick a random spot go pick ghost, go pick go pick like for instance, Cosper, Kirby, yeah, go pick something and
[00:20:41] Jason Cosper: one of those, yeah,
[00:20:43] Jason Tucker: yeah, and go set it up and see how it works.
[00:20:45] Sé Reed: We’ve been having these conversations also in the discord. It’s and I think that’s really why this title was so great with or without a question mark. I actually like it without the question mark because it’s rhetorical. It’s what’s the alternative? That’s how I, that’s how I’m saying it in my head. If you only knew my workflow, you would know exactly why that question mark disappeared in the chain of copy and pastes that I do.
[00:21:10] Sé Reed: I wonder if when we’re talking about. More expansive sites, because we’re already talking about for your blog, you’re double uploading images, you’re having to add on stuff, you’re it’s, you’re already having to string things together and do a lot of work for what is in WordPress, the vanilla install, right?
[00:21:33] Sé Reed: Like you’ve got all of that stuff on the baseline for WordPress. If we’re keeping score, like a little scoreboard down here It seems to me that posts and images are like the basics, like that’s the baseline. And if you have to have, if you don’t have a media library and I don’t care that much about image editing because I never image edit with WordPress’s image editor.
[00:21:59] Sé Reed: I just, why would you do that? No one, I couldn’t figure out how to crop for 10 years. So it’s do you hit the button? You do it first. Then you hit the button. So annoying. Yeah.
[00:22:14] Sé Reed: but I’ve never, it seems absurd to me to edit an image in a CMS like that but people do that, like users do that.
[00:22:25] Sé Reed: So we’re talking about the baseline user, right? Using these different alternatives. There was a, I can’t remember her last name, but her name is Tessa. Her last name starts with a K.
[00:22:37]
[00:22:38] Jason Cosper: Crystal.
[00:22:39] Sé Reed: Crystal? Yeah, Crystal. She was in WordPress was a developer advocate in WordPress, was doing developer stuff and developer advocacy.
[00:22:49] Sé Reed: Her story is really interesting from a community societal perspective. But not talking about that, but she, so she’s basically left the WordPress community, as have so many. But she was tweeting on X. That sounds like a fun night. I was tweeting on X. She was posting on X, Hey, what’s out there?
[00:23:16] Sé Reed: I need to build this simple website. And it’s like, all these people were shouting out different options or whatever. And I was like I know this platform. And she was like it’s just too complicated. It’s too complicated out of the box to get it set up. So this is really interesting.
[00:23:36] Sé Reed: We’ve got WordPress, which out of the box, so many people are like, it doesn’t do enough. And then over, it’s also oh, but it’s too complicated. And then we have all these alternatives. We haven’t even, we all know about Wix and Squarespace and the WYSIWYG life. Weebly, which is now Square all of those things, which are just builders essentially.
[00:23:58] Sé Reed: They’re basically like just. Put your thing together. And I don’t even know how those things are served. Are they served as static? I don’t even know what they are served as, but.
[00:24:08] Jason Tucker: doesn’t matter because you’re not, you don’t even have any control over
[00:24:11] Sé Reed: So they’re just doing whatever they do. They could change it all and no one would matter as long as the UI stays the same because you’re not doing any back end at all.
[00:24:18] Sé Reed: So it’s just really interesting from like a, I don’t know. Okay. I’m not in the like most pro, go WordPress forever space right now, as we all know. But I still can’t. For my purposes, which we haven’t even gotten into, like the more complicated, involved, like expansive sites where you’re doing like maps and dynamic content and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
[00:24:46] Sé Reed: But even for the baseline, I just need a simple site with some pages, right? People are still both, WordPress is too basic and WordPress is too complicated. So it is mind boggling to me that we can occupy that whole space at the same time. What is that? That is wild. I,
[00:25:09] Jason Tucker: yeah, I was telling you folks this in the text messaging thread we have where it’s the idea for me is I want to be able to go onto my website and write something and then walk away from it. But instead, every time I go into WordPress, I have 500 notifications of all the different things that either need an update, they need a thing changed.
[00:25:31] Jason Tucker: They need to do this and that. And then I spend so much more time trying to like do updates that don’t need to be done right that immediately. Or maybe they do because there’s like a pending zero day vulnerability or some crazy something that I have to like do those updates. And then I finally go, Oh, I can write now. Cool.
[00:25:53] Sé Reed: that is using all of those tools and tricks, right? That’s, you’ve got all your different plugins that are giving you notifications and updates. If you were using the baseline vanilla WordPress install for your posts and your
[00:26:05]
[00:26:05] Sé Reed: You would only get the core updates. And maybe AkitaNet and HelloDolly if you haven’t deleted those.
[00:26:13]
[00:26:14] Sé Reed: How often is HelloDolly really updated though? But you’re, it’s like WordPress is just so easy to make more complicated. I think that is part of it, right? You can just pop over into the plugins and you’re like, Oh, I just add this on. It’s just right there. It’s a boop boop.
[00:26:32] Sé Reed: It’s done.
[00:26:33]
[00:26:34] Sé Reed: And then the complexity that comes with that, Is becomes the problem, right? So it’s like the ease of the installation or the add ons
[00:26:44] Jason Tucker: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Sé Reed: the complexity that brings. And in ghost, what you’re saying is you have the simplicity and then you have to pay for the add ons. So you’re not as inclined perhaps to just click and install.
[00:26:58] Sé Reed: So it’s WordPress just become more complicated because it’s easy to make more complicated?
[00:27:07] Jason Cosper: Yes I think, and this is something I’ve been saying for at least a dozen years now, best thing about WordPress is you can build anything with WordPress. The worst thing about WordPress is that you can build anything with WordPress.
[00:27:25] Sé Reed: That’s exactly it. Sometimes parameters make things easier, right? Sometimes those limitations make it easier. Why, what, I’m just tossing this out there, but if we’re trying to make something simpler, it might be cool to be like, you have to turn on plugins. aren’t necessary for a baseline install, they’re just not.
[00:27:50] Sé Reed: They’re a cool added feature. Themes are necessary, right? You have to have a theme. You can’t operate a site without a theme. At this point in theory. It could just all be, you get your default theme, and you go about your day, unless you turn on themes. But for plugins, all that complexity, which is just right there, just right in that other little screen to a certain degree, it would be more comparing apples to apples, or oranges to oranges, if we were, if we didn’t have that.
[00:28:18] Sé Reed: Didn’t have that little section because you wouldn’t get all the notification updates. You wouldn’t get any of that. And so that’s really what we should be comparing if we’re talking about that baseline, because it’s not really fair to be like I go into WordPress and I see 10 million updates and I go into ghost or microbe.
[00:28:37] Sé Reed: blog and there’s nothing. It’s because we’ll, you’re not doing any, like none of the, you don’t have any of that stuff.
[00:28:44] Jason Tucker: Yeah. I if I was selling something on with Shopify, for instance, there would be Shopify notifications telling me that there’s new ways of selling a thing and there’s new this and that. You get those notification fatigue. Anyhow, so it’s I’m just changing it up a little bit, going from one type of notification fatigue to another, or just not having any functionality.
[00:29:11] Jason Tucker: One quick thing about Ghost is that, you’ve may have said it just because you don’t know, but there, Is no plugin infrastructure in Ghost.
[00:29:20] Sé Reed: Oh, how do you do the add on then with the
[00:29:22] Jason Tucker: So there’s things called integrations and there’s only five of them.
[00:29:27] Sé Reed: just
[00:29:27] Jason Tucker: it. Yeah. There’s a there’s five of them. And one of them is 150 advanced image editing.
[00:29:34] Jason Tucker: There’s another one that’s a membership referral system. Another one of them is Unsplash. You have Google amp, which is going away in this next version. And then they have Slack. That’s it.
[00:29:46] Sé Reed: Slack. The hell do you Slack on your website for?
[00:29:50] Jason Tucker: I don’t know. That’s
[00:29:51] Jason Cosper: It’s to post updates from your ghost to Slack. So if you want to share that, Oh, there’s a new post. And you have a community Slack, whatever, you can share that in there. But I
[00:30:08] Jason Tucker: And that’s your webhook.
[00:30:09] Jason Cosper: I think what this comes down to you, it’s okay, you want to send mail from Ghost.
[00:30:15] Jason Cosper: It’s a mail gun. You want to take payments through Ghost. It’s Stripe. This actually goes back. And this is the way that I prefer to think about it is this goes back. To one of the core tenants of original like WordPress is decisions, not options. They are making decisions. They are not giving you the options.
[00:30:42] Jason Cosper: You can do this. You can take payments as long as you take payments through
[00:30:47]
[00:30:48] Jason Cosper: You can take you want to post your stuff to, to chat, then you do it through Slack or if you use Zapier, which is another one of their you can rig up something that then posts to You can do whatever with your zaps.
[00:31:12]
[00:31:12] Jason Cosper: Yeah,
[00:31:14] Sé Reed: That, yeah.
[00:31:17] Jason Tucker: there’s a membership thing for your Patreon or there’s like a protect your email delivery verification with something called zero bounce. There’s all sorts of different things. You want to write this thing to a Google doc. Okay. It’s all built in just by using Zapier to do it.
[00:31:31] Jason Tucker: Or you have a custom, you have a way of doing a custom one. So for instance, I want to use make. It’s okay here’s your content ID and you’re this and that. And away you go and you’re on your own, whether it works or not. And we’re not going to tell you if it doesn’t work. So good luck with that.
[00:31:48] Jason Tucker: But yeah the grass is the grass greener on the other side of the fence. I don’t know. I think it’s an apartment building right now.
[00:31:58] Sé Reed: This is what’s so interesting, right? The community and the surrounding ecosystem and all of that, that has been the, Huge part of WordPress, right? That has been the other half of it. That’s made every, all the developers there, you can get help. It’s just, it’s, that has been a huge part of it. If you separate that out of WordPress, right? If you take that away and you’re really just comparing the platforms I, despite my desire to want to do this I cannot, I’ve not found any other platform that allows me to create the the complexity for my clients that I have to create, or I would be essentially hand programming everything, right?
[00:32:47] Sé Reed: There isn’t something else where I can load in like facet WP and I’ve got. Search criteria that I can display in various ways, right? That’s Ajax displayed and all beautiful. I’d have to build that out. And that’s not something you can integrate with Zapier, right? That’s not a, that’s like happening on the site. But
[00:33:08] Sé Reed: Oh, go ahead.
[00:33:09] Jason Cosper: I want to go back to something Tucker said, where it’s like an apartment building. I don’t, there’s, I think I’ve thought of a better metaphor here, which is yeah so having a
[00:33:25] Sé Reed: A better metaphor than what was the metaphor we were
[00:33:28] Jason Cosper: an apartment building. So
[00:33:29] Sé Reed: Oh, got it.
[00:33:30] Jason Cosper: a Go site is like an apartment building.
[00:33:32] Jason Cosper: Having a WordPress site that you can do anything, it’s like custom building your own house, right? So you can add whatever. Yeah.
[00:33:44] Sé Reed: It’s a literal platform.
[00:33:46] Jason Cosper: in a lot of cases I don’t know if both of you or our audience are familiar with the blog McMansion Howl, but in a lot of cases this is what people end up building are McMansions.
[00:34:01] Sé Reed: Or like that house that’s the Winchester Mystery House that’s here in California and it’s like the crazy woman who like built the house and then started to add on. And if you
[00:34:11] Jason Tucker: Doors going everywhere.
[00:34:13] Sé Reed: you should google it because it’s really interesting. Like doors that staircases that lead to nowhere and doors that don’t open that are like a cliff or whatever.
[00:34:20] Jason Tucker: That’s me with plugins.
[00:34:22] Sé Reed: yeah, it’s like you can just do that. You really could. I was actually on I do occasionally still look at the X just to see what everyone’s talking about, but I believe it was Daniel Awesomesmith, I believe he’s going by now. He was talking about, what was he talking about?
[00:34:41] Sé Reed: Now I forgot, because I was thinking about his name.
[00:34:44] Jason Cosper: Okay. But let me just let me land this thought that I originally had
[00:34:50] Sé Reed: Liz
[00:34:50] Jason Cosper: part of the other part of the metaphor here is like ghost, if you will, is like one of those prefab container homes. It is all the pieces they’re already built. The kitchen is where it is.
[00:35:07] Jason Cosper: The bathroom is where it is. You want to add stuff onto it? Sure. You can put an ADU, like an accessory dwelling unit on your lot. But either you’re going to have to build it yourself, or you’re going to have to pick from one of these other prefabbed ADUs that we
[00:35:28] Jason Tucker: Left side of the page, right side of the page. Like that’s all you get. You get left or right. Sometimes it might be on the bottom depending on the theme, but that’s it.
[00:35:35] Jason Cosper: Yeah, you get and you can build your own ghost themes. I will say one of the things about ghost is all of its themes look strikingly similar.
[00:35:50] Jason Tucker: Oh yeah. I, to the point where people used to say that WordPress was everything like, Oh, that looks like a WordPress website. I would say that is incorrect. That this does look like a ghost website. You look at a ghost website, they look all the same, but you look at WordPress websites, there’s so many themes.
[00:36:10] Jason Tucker: Obviously they don’t look the same.
[00:36:13] Jason Cosper: not enough people are running a ghost website to know what a ghost website looks like because you and I have messed with ghost. We know what a ghost website
[00:36:20] Jason Tucker: websites look identical.
[00:36:22] Jason Cosper: Yeah. Yeah. The website I’ve built and the website you’ve built look basically the same and I said, like the site that I’ve built for Sarah’s podcast.
[00:36:34] Jason Cosper: I I might still go. And use WordPress only because I’m like, okay if I want to use ghost, like I said, it’s that prefabbed house. So say I want to do something like post new episodes to the Fediverse, I can put the activity pub plugin on the site. If it’s WordPress, if I want to do that.
[00:37:03] Jason Cosper: With ghost, I’m going to have to like munch the RSS feed,
[00:37:08] Jason Tucker: Webhooks and,
[00:37:09] Jason Cosper: Web, but yeah all of this stuff that I’m just like, ah instead it’s low code or no code I can
[00:37:22] Jason Tucker: Or only could.
[00:37:23] Jason Cosper: buttons, yeah mash a couple buttons and install something that’ll get me 99 percent of the way there.
[00:37:32]
[00:37:32] Jason Cosper: That’s still pretty compelling. However I was like showing Sarah, I’m like, oh, Hey, I just was playing around with this other content management system. Here’s what I did with it. And she’s oh, this looks great. It just looks like a podcast site, like a. Whatever. And I was like it had the little call out because it has the whole newsletter integration built in.
[00:38:01] Jason Cosper: Like you want to get updates on future episodes that we post, like subscribe here. And she was like, Oh, so this will email people when a new episode comes out. Like they don’t even need to be subscribed. I was like, yeah, if they give you their email address and she goes, Oh, that’s great.
[00:38:18] Jason Cosper: People don’t even know, have to know how to use a podcast.
[00:38:23] Jason Tucker: The internet.
[00:38:24] Jason Cosper: Yeah,
[00:38:25] Sé Reed: So I think the key thing to this is what makes that different even for you transferring your skills over is. You know what you want to build you are a website architect, so expanding that metaphor if you want to expand your little prefab house, you can you know how to integrate it, you know the guy, you can call for the expansion, you can pop out a wall, or whatever. With WordPress, it’s the same thing. You’ve got your, you’ve got your blueprints and you’re not going to build this wild house that’s got all this stuff on it unless you want that to happen. So I think that’s, it always is talking about who’s using the site, who’s building the site.
[00:39:09] Sé Reed: If we’re still just talking about a basic blog site, most of those people are not, Jason, right? And most of those people are not Tucker, who’s oh, I see what all these things are, and if I want to do this, I can. They’re just like, I just want to set up a blog. And I have a client.
[00:39:29] Sé Reed: It’s a complicated situation, but there’s like a sub part of this client. And I set up a blog spot for their blog right now, in 2024. I know, but it’s not, they’re using it right now. And we’re building this new site. And I’m like, literally they just sent me the download. And I’m like, Oh, I have to go turn on my blogger importer in my import, right?
[00:39:57] Sé Reed: There’s, it’s still there. I’m just gonna go like import blog. But that’s the thing, right? What are people building? Like people think that they’re coming to build a website that either it’s I don’t care what’s, I don’t even need an about page. I just want some hours and like a thing, or I just want to a couple of posts or something, or they want an entire like universe, right?
[00:40:26] Sé Reed: Most people who are DIYing this, they don’t necessarily know the difference. So they don’t know. Which of these tools would be better for that? So there’s all this competing information out there Oh, use Squarespace. Oh, use Wix. Oh, use whatever. And it’s to a certain degree, they all have applications.
[00:40:45] Sé Reed: They, there is a good spot for everybody, but people are not thinking about what they need. They’re just like. Let me dive in and put a background and some images on, right? That continues to be the main problem. I wanted to say, I forgot what I was going to say earlier, but I remember now talking about notifications and all the notifications you get and managing WordPress.
[00:41:08] Sé Reed: So I’ve built a lot of, over the last year, I built a lot of Websites and like other stuff just for different purposes. And one of the weirdest ones was HubSpot, right? Because HubSpot, you don’t always like HubSpot has so many layers, but this is like the full like HubSpot, they’ve got like a CMS, like it’s got, it’s like the pro
[00:41:30] Jason Tucker: Oh yeah.
[00:41:31] Sé Reed: thing.
[00:41:32] Sé Reed: So there’s like all this stuff and it’s all cool. Cause it’s interconnected. But I just got, last week, another I didn’t set up the baseline theme for this site. I just had to fix all the stuff for the people who are the HubSpot preferred vendors, by the way. They’re on the HubSpot list, they set it up, and then they’re like, Oh we don’t know how to install this translation plugin, or this translation service.
[00:41:55] Sé Reed: I guess we gotta call Sé again. But I just got an a notification in email that the theme that they chose for HubSpot needs, has an update available. And I was like, you cannot escape the updates. Like you can’t escape the notification. as soon as you add something on, no matter what it is, you are gonna have to maintain it.
[00:42:24] Sé Reed: The notifications component is only obviously, many thoughts about WordPress notifications and the admin screen and the banners and all the
[00:42:35] Sé Reed: That is a management problem, like a problem that we created. Notifications are out of control, across the board, for sure. But that’s not something unless everything is done in house none of those services all of those services have add ons.
[00:42:54] Sé Reed: Squarespace has add ons, Shopify has add ons, Ghost has add ons, even if it’s integrations or whatever. I don’t know what does it, just Medium probably doesn’t, right? I have no idea. I haven’t used Medium in a long time. But, as soon as you add on that third party part, any, whatever it is, however easy it is to turn it on or click it, now you have a separate, Software that has a separate development team, generally, doing their updates separately from the platform that you’re on.
[00:43:27] Sé Reed: You just like on your phone, right? You can enable auto updates and you can enable all that stuff, but you’re still, you still need to update, you still have to have your flug, your phone plugged in at night, update or whatever, like you’re still getting those notifications.
[00:43:42] Sé Reed: Again, I feel like it’s we’re comparing things, we’re comparing like the most complex, annoying installation of WordPress to like this vanilla, baseline, no frills whatsoever, alternative, right? Cause
[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Sé Reed: Shopify, all that, it gets complicated in there. I’ve done
[00:44:04] Jason Tucker: Oh yeah.
[00:44:05] Sé Reed: Airspace where I had to export, I did this wild crazy it wasn’t Zapier, it was this other one called Like peaches?
[00:44:14] Sé Reed: No, not peaches. It was something like that. It’s like with a P. It’s like an automator, but it’s a little more techie. But so I when someone bought a thing or whatever, it had to go here, and then it was entered into, actually into a WordPress website. It was like created an account, right?
[00:44:30] Sé Reed: So their sales was on WordPress. Squarespace. And then I connected that so that it would create a membership or whatever on WordPress. Do not get me started on why we wouldn’t just build the damn thing. But it’s because the designer built the ticketing site in Squarespace with their, whatever theme they wanted.
[00:44:51] Sé Reed: And they’re like, Oh, this is done. And it’s now we have to string together all of these things. Anyway, the point is I don’t think we’re ever, we’re not comparing the same things. We are trying to, but across the board out there, people are not comparing the same things.
[00:45:12] Sé Reed: Developers are not talking about, marketers are not comparing the same things. They’re talking about fully even like with HubSpot, there’s all these different levels, right? You can have your baseline level where you have some features and then you add your next level and you get those features.
[00:45:27] Sé Reed: We’re just in this it’s like in an add on world right now, right? Surcharge world. Everything is like an extra charge or an extra little thing or you have to string these stuff together. I know when I talk with people even about networking their houses to make their Houses all talk to each other.
[00:45:49] Sé Reed: They’re like, oh, my Nest has to talk to my refrigerator, has to talk to my whatever. And it’s all these different softwares talking to each other that are not the same. It’s everywhere. Like we have a million niche softwares happening, I
[00:46:04] Jason Tucker: then one person makes a change to it or one company does a whatever, and now your garage door doesn’t open or now your lights don’t turn on or now your whatever happens and you go, oh, capitalism. That’s what happened. Oh, capitalism’s what happened. So cool.
[00:46:19] Sé Reed: about capitalism. I remember, I went to go look on Daniel’s Twitter for what it was, but I actually just remembered. He was tweeting, and I’ve had this, a similar thing, not quite exactly, but he got a client site that he opened and he said there was, I think it was BeaverBuilder, Elementor, WPBakery, and LiquidWPBakery, or something like that,
[00:46:40] Jason Tucker: Nice.
[00:46:41] Sé Reed: whatever that is.
[00:46:42] Sé Reed: And it was a really funny thread in there, it was like, Every page gets its own page builder, someone said, and I was like, That makes it more complicated, right? So someone’s using that website and they’re like, WordPress sucks. This is so complicated. Like, why do I have layouts inside my layout?
[00:47:02] Sé Reed: Like what is happening? And, but I like to think of myself as a quality site architect, right? So I map stuff out for people and my whole thing is making the back end not complicated for people. So people use. My WordPress websites, and they’ve got a nice streamlined user user dashboard.
[00:47:24] Sé Reed: They’ve got they’re not seeing any notifications. It’s like really the admin looks terrible because you can’t do anything about it. But like their experience is like this nice clean experience. But that’s not out of the box either. So you know, there are definitely alternatives.
[00:47:46] Sé Reed: I can’t go and just be like F WordPress this is crappy. I don’t like what they’re doing. I don’t like where the admin’s going. I don’t like. I don’t like their politics I don’t like blah, blah, blah, but the software itself, I’ve been thinking about this a lot because of all my drama in the community, right?
[00:48:08] Sé Reed: There isn’t a software that does this, does the custom post types, has the prebuilt stuff the client can have a contract with and pay for their own license and manage that stuff. That doesn’t really exist elsewhere.
[00:48:27] Jason Tucker: Yeah.
[00:48:28] Sé Reed: Someone asked me if I set up a Squarespace site, they’re like, Ooh, I want it to do XYZ. I’d be like you can’t, or you have to get this other thing. And we have to figure out how this integration works because they’re not. Not just that I don’t have familiarity with it a lot of those Squarespace add ons and stuff, they have a theme forest vibe. So it’s not a lot of documentation, not a lot of, here’s how to do it.
[00:48:55] Sé Reed: They’re not, I think Wix added on like a developer component, right? They have Wix developer now. So I think that’s there, there’s more under the hood stuff that you can do, but still this is the thing, like you can do a basic vanilla WordPress, but you can also do that huge thing.
[00:49:20] Sé Reed: And so it comes down to what you said, Cosper, like you can do anything with WordPress, but oh my God, you can get into so much trouble. And so you can’t go into as much trouble necessarily in Shopify or Squarespace, but then you also can’t grow and do those things. We always we always say it depends.
[00:49:43] Sé Reed: We used to, before we got all community focused, right? I guess there for every project it is, it depends. It’s not like I use WordPress and that’s all I use, right? It’s like I talk to the client. And I see what the client needs, and their workflow, and what’s happening with that, and then I bring it in.
[00:50:07] Sé Reed: Oh, I, we have to say this. Yes. You wanna, I’m just gonna tell you a fun random fact before we leave, is that my brother, who I talk about he’s always I always talk about my dev brother, he dated Meatloaf’s daughter, Amanda. Isn’t that random? I went to the Meatloaf house, I held his Grammy, this was in college, I just thought that was really, I didn’t meet Meatloaf or anything, but I thought that was a really random factoid.
[00:50:36] Sé Reed: Just thought I’d share that since I don’t think Meatloaf has ever actually come up on the show before, and if you’re listening to the podcast, this was from Rochelle listener, longtime listener, wonderful community member in our discord who said, Wait for it, ready? I could do anything with WordPress, but I won’t do that. I had to sing it so that the podcaster people could, the audio people could also
[00:51:08] Jason Cosper: know, and you suffer for your art, because I know that you’ve had some Yeah, I
[00:51:14] Jason Cosper: scratchy throat
[00:51:15] Sé Reed: hope that was terribly off key, sorry
[00:51:18] Jason Cosper: No.
[00:51:19] Jason Tucker: sorry, I didn’t want to back up sing for you or anything We could do like a whole harmony thing. Anyway, so I’ve been looking for alternatives. You’ve been playing with alternatives, Tucker. Cosper, you’re bopping around making sites for every niche little thing that might exist. You two are so funny. And isn’t it just like more toys at this point?
[00:51:44] Sé Reed: Or like more options? I don’t think there’s anything I would recommend for just like one client. For any, everybody. There’s just no that just my designer friend they’re not going to use Wix for a magazine site. They’re going to use Webflow and, what I told her was, and this kind of ties into the whole data liberation thing, at a certain point, if it’s not working, if you need more, then you can change.
[00:52:12] Sé Reed: And I think that is what’s really important. Some of these so I would not recommend any alternative where you can’t change later. So if you’re locked in for life, that would be my one no go.
[00:52:29] Jason Tucker: I will say one thing regarding that. So the and this has come up a number of times on Mastodon, other places I’ve been posting this about, is I’ve had the question asked, how hard is it moving from one thing to the next? And I will tell you, I will, you cannot move from some niche piece of software to some other niche piece of software.
[00:52:52] Jason Tucker: You have to go back to the source, which is WordPress. So what I have to do is I have to backfeed all of my posts from other places back into WordPress so I can forward feed back into
[00:53:07] Jason Cosper: I did,
[00:53:08] Sé Reed: believe you’re saying this 53 minutes into the end of the show.
[00:53:12] Jason Tucker: yeah, so
[00:53:13] Jason Cosper: I did the. And Tucker knows this. I did the exact same thing with Sarah’s podcast site because everything was tied up again, not an exportable thing was tied up in the whole Spotify podcast thing I found something that will ingest podcast RSS feeds and turn them into posts in a WordPress site that then I took and used the ghost exporter.
[00:53:45] Jason Cosper: Cause there’s a ghost export WordPress that writes out to their JSON export format, it saves all of the the images and everything else, which was just the show art for each one of her episodes. So I did that. I ingested it all into WordPress and then I sent it back out.
[00:54:08] Sé Reed: I
[00:54:08] Jason Tucker: I am moving nine.
[00:54:11] Sé Reed: tidbit that you have just shared, the two of you, because I feel like it answers the question
[00:54:19] Jason Tucker: I’m going to blow your mind right now.
[00:54:21] Sé Reed: That’s not that’s silly,
[00:54:25] Jason Tucker: I’m going to blow your mind right now. I am moving a nine megabyte text file one source to the next. So the, so exporting from my personal WordPress website into ghost was a nine megabyte single line JSON file. That I’m then I’m uploading it to them. Hopefully it actually ingests it. And then after that I can do stuff with it.
[00:54:52] Jason Tucker: But that nine megabyte file is Jason from the first time he ever stepped foot on the web to now,
[00:55:00] Sé Reed: Talk about baggage,
[00:55:01] Jason Tucker: like 1996.
[00:55:03] Sé Reed: You know exactly how much baggage you have.
[00:55:06] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s just, and that’s just. That’s just the text, not the images and old school. Jason did not know how to compress images. He, he did some very stupid things back in the day.
[00:55:21] Jason Tucker: And then the fact that I’ve switched from each of these different Each of these different themes in WordPress, each one of them has its own set of images that it’s having to generate. So you end up with all these different images, and then you’re taking all those and you’re uploading it into Ghost.
[00:55:42] Jason Tucker: And Ghost is going cool, thanks for all 9, 000 different file sizes that you have for this image. I just want the main one, like the
[00:55:54] Sé Reed: You don’t want your 300×300, your 150×150. You just
[00:55:57] Jason Tucker: cause it’s going to generate its own.
[00:55:59] Sé Reed: Just give it to me. Just that one. I actually just moved. I just pulled off of a site. I just pulled I went into the uploads folder and pulled, which I haven’t looked at in a while, so it’s like this old site, and I just pulled all the like main one.
[00:56:12] Sé Reed: I was like, damn, there are literally so many images. That’s what it is. For each of these images, no wonder I need Amazon Web Storage what the heck? You forget that’s happening because you don’t see them, it’s not like you create extra ones in the media library, right? I was a little, I
[00:56:31] Jason Tucker: videos that are being moved around too.
[00:56:33] Jason Cosper: that that site has old LiveJournal posts. Am I wrong?
[00:56:38] Jason Tucker: Oh yeah, it does.
[00:56:39] Sé Reed: Oh my god, you have literally been moving your data around for so long. But I need to say that it’s hard to say that you are using alternatives to WordPress
[00:56:50] Jason Tucker: There’s B2 posts in there.
[00:56:52] Sé Reed: you’re using WordPress as part of your process for moving and developing these sites.
[00:56:59] Jason Tucker: Movable type,
[00:57:00] Sé Reed: if it’s just for integrate You’re like, WordPress is like
[00:57:04] Jason Tucker: blogger.
[00:57:05] Sé Reed: data it’s it’s the daisy chain,
[00:57:09] Jason Tucker: Yeah.
[00:57:09] Sé Reed: opposed to whatever. I incidentally, my solution to this lately, Has been putting all the data in Airtable. I’m doing like for all of my clients. I’m like, here’s your data because your website, really what we’re learning. And from this is a website is not a great archive.
[00:57:27] Sé Reed: Like it is not a great place to store stuff. So yeah, your data laundering. Oh, I love that. That’s really good. Anyway, I think it’s interesting because it’s not still an alternative. So like
[00:57:39] Jason Tucker: Yeah.
[00:57:40] Sé Reed: how you’re still using it. I feel
[00:57:42] Jason Tucker: Yeah. And the value there’s honestly zero value to any of the content in that nine megabyte file that I’m moving around, except for me, that’s it. Most of them are screenshots of me saying stupid things about a thing back in 19 or 2002 or whatever it’s
[00:58:02] Sé Reed: stuff is really important and good though.
[00:58:04] Jason Tucker: Oh yeah.
[00:58:05] Jason Tucker: Yeah, totally.
[00:58:07] Sé Reed: Now it’s all your woodworking projects and
[00:58:10] Sé Reed: You could actually, you could probably actually go back to your blog and I think you chronicle every time you move it. So you probably have like blog posts. You’re like now I’m here. And now it’s like postcards from all the different houses you’ve lived in. Like you have a postcard collection.
[00:58:28] Jason Tucker: I got to screenshot it and put the screenshot in the post before I move it. Yeah,
[00:58:33] Sé Reed: believe we’ve talked about this for an hour. Yeah,
[00:58:35] Jason Tucker: I know. And say literally had a hard stop for that. She said for 30 minutes and we passed that up 30 minutes ago.
[00:58:43]
[00:58:44] Sé Reed: That long, but of course I can. Who are we kidding? My name is Sé, for crying out loud. Alright.
[00:58:54] Jason Tucker: thank you all for very much for coming and hanging out with us. We really appreciate it. And go hang out in the discord. Tell us one of your crazy stories that we’ve been discussing here. You can go over to our website and go over to watercoolerslack. LOL,
[00:59:10] Sé Reed: That
[00:59:10] Jason Tucker: where you can find us
[00:59:11] Sé Reed: funny to me. Which is hilarious.
[00:59:14] Sé Reed: I think that’s the best. And you are all data launderers. data laundering or data liberating?
[00:59:22] Jason Tucker: Right?
[00:59:23] Sé Reed: I think we should start calling it data laundering, to be honest. I really
[00:59:26] Jason Tucker: Oh man,
[00:59:27] Sé Reed: I think that’s way better. Liberation has way too much revolution to I’m glad in it to be something that we can say in WordPress.
[00:59:35] Sé Reed: I’ve just I cannot get behind it as a phrase for WordPress with the community stuff. So data laundering, to me, it really captures it in a whole, like it gets all the nuance, tucker,
[00:59:56] Jason Tucker: outro.
[00:59:57] Jason Cosper: thank
[00:59:57] Sé Reed: us out of here.
[01:00:01] Jason Tucker: So go over to that website, which is still running on WordPress over at wpwatercooler. com slash subscribe, where you can subscribe to all of our content over there. And also, if you don’t mind, send this out to somebody go in click a share button someplace and just let people know that we posted something and that you enjoyed it and maybe they enjoy it too.
[01:00:20] Jason Tucker: Talk to y’all later.
[01:00:21] Sé Reed: if you come to the Discord
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