[00:00:00] Sé Reed: 3, 2, 1. Launch
[00:00:04] Jason Tucker: This is episode number 434 of WPwatercooler. Speaking of diversity
[00:00:14] Sé Reed: it’s the keyword.
[00:00:15] Jason Tucker: I’m Jason Tucker. You find me at Jason Tucker on some stuff. Maybe Twitter still. I don’t know. We’ll see how long that lasts.
[00:00:21] Sé Reed: No. I am, say Reid and right now say media, but also, Hello, this is Sayon Tumblr, Maybe.
[00:00:28] Jason Cosper: Y’all know who it is, It’s here, boy. Jason Cosper, AKA Fat Mullen, like back at it again on the world’s most influential WordPress podcast.
[00:00:35] Sé Reed: Solid.
[00:00:36] Jason Tucker: Go to Apple Podcast, Audible, Google Podcast, Spotify, wherever it is. You wanna listen and hang out with us in discord. Go w do com slash discord.
[00:00:47] Sé Reed: Yeah. Which is, it’s also not Twitter.
[00:00:50] Jason Tucker: Which is also not
[00:00:51] Sé Reed: part also not Twitter. we have guests. We have guests.
[00:00:56] Oneal Rosero: Yay.
[00:00:57] Sé Reed: all I’m gonna do to avoid any copywriting,
[00:01:00] Jason Cosper: Yeah.
[00:01:01] to my left. which to, to this side O’Neal, will you introduce yourself?
[00:01:06] Oneal Rosero: Hi, my name’s O’Neill. I’m in the Philippines. It’s the middle of the night right now, but I’m here, for the WPwatercooler discussion.
[00:01:14] Oneal Rosero: Thank you. And, what team are you’re part of the Yes, actually I’m part of the training faculty team as administrator and I’m also with Jill and also working with the WP Diversity team with a focus on the Asia Pacific activities. And I’m also part of the organizing team for Work Camp Asia, which is in February, 2020.
[00:01:40] Sé Reed: really exciting. There’s a lot of, conversation happening around work Camp Asia right now. It’s exciting times.
[00:01:46] Oneal Rosero: It is. It
[00:01:47] Sé Reed: And Jill, welcome back.
[00:01:50] Jill Binder: Hi,
[00:01:51] Sé Reed: Hi. Please introduce yourself.
[00:01:52] Jill Binder: Binder and I’m really happy that O’Neill joins me at things when it’s in the middle of the night, which most of our things are, and I’m so grateful for that. Jill Binder, lead of the diverse speaker training group, hashtag WP Diversity in the WordPress community team. yeah, that’s me.
[00:02:11] Jill Binder: Oh, and I’m in Vancouver, Canada.
[00:02:15] Sé Reed: welcome
[00:02:15] Jill Binder: Twitter is Jill Blinder. You all said your Twitter’s in the intro, so
[00:02:21] we’ve relied heavily on Twitter, we’re all like, in a weird space now with that. I don’t know how we feel with May be seen. It’s like the MySpace Facebook conversion times,
[00:02:30] Sé Reed: unknown. We dunno what we’re doing now. anyway, let’s talk about why we are, why we have you guys on here today.
[00:02:37] Sé Reed: I, really wanted to,I saw that you had been doing some really cool. Jill, and I’ve always been, I’ve been really, I’ve been tracking the work that you’ve done, since you started this initiative, which was like, what year was that? When did you, can you give us a little background on that
[00:02:54] Jill Binder: the first time I started working on this workshop with a group was in 2013, but this WordPress team 13, a long time ago, and this WordPress team started in late 2017. So I’ve been the lead of this team since 2017. So this has been a big part of my life for quite a while.
[00:03:16] Sé Reed: how did the team get started? I know that you had started doing this work, individually, and then you had been sponsored, by automatic, and then, now it’s part of the community team. Is that, how does, how did
[00:03:28] slight different timeline, but yes,
[00:03:31] Sé Reed: Oh yeah. I don’t,I don’t know the
[00:03:33] Sé Reed: timeline yet.
[00:03:34] Jill Binder: Yeah. So I’ll try to do like a very quick rundown, cause I have a whole half hour talk on this part of it, but, Quick version is, so we started running this workshop in Vancouver and we did it for a bunch of years, and then other cities started doing it.
[00:03:49] Jill Binder: And then in 2017, Andrea Middleton and I were both speaking at Word Camp Seattle, and she pulled me aside and said, Let’s talk about your work. We really want this to become. this is the solution that everybody’s looking for and they don’t know what exists. And When we say solutions, specifically this workshop that we’re talking about is, when, as a word, camp co, court organizer, when we asked women and people from other underrepresented groups if they wanted to speak at our Word camp, everybody’s Nah, what would I talk about?
[00:04:18] Jill Binder: I’m not an expert in anything. So we created a workshop to bust through people’s, views on that. And see they have a million things and we have the same expertise as people on the stage who just don’t recognize it. If we don’t see ourselves on stage, we think that other people know more. And so there’s, we’ve created this whole five hour workshop, which during the pandemic we’ve shortened down to one to two hours, cuz not too many wanna sit through a five hour workshop and then, So I became lead of that team and then that was just my passion, purpose and I wanted to do more of it.
[00:04:51] Jill Binder: And then, I was in conversation with Automatic for a long time before they finally have been sponsoring me for the last few years. So for the first year I was purely a volunteer. And then after that, this has become, Half of my full-time job. The other half is bringing the same work to other companies.
[00:05:08] Jill Binder: And now also Green is sponsoring my work with it as well. And we are in conversations with other companies because we want to do more, which requires more financial resources. So I’ll only be able to talk today about what we’re currently doing cause I have to wait until we know if we’re doing more, but there’s potentially a lot more cool things planned.
[00:05:28] Sé Reed: Yeah, I think, that’s when I remember it, first coming to my attention in 2017 when you started doing the, those workshops, because I thought it was so interesting how, The training focused on empowering speakers. So I thought that was a really unique approach instead of putting it all on the organizers, which it also still is to find diverse people and whatever.
[00:05:52] you go find those people, but it also, created
[00:05:56] Jill Binder: still have to say yes.
[00:05:57] Jill Binder: exactly my team was aware of the issue and we were specifically looking for it. in year two, in year one, we had terrible representations. So in year two it became a focus and people were like, I don’t want to like, And so that, that’s why it really does have to be both sides.
[00:06:13] Jill Binder: Absolutely. And so our, in our workshop we, we have concrete things where people are actually working through exercises to work through seeing that we are experts, seeing that we do have a lot of things to talk about. And if we do the expanded version, then also we work on creating a better talk title, creating the pitch so that people.
[00:06:32] Jill Binder: Their talks actually get accepted because those who have been on the speaker circuit for a long time have shiny pitches. And those who are new from our program do not, so aren’t as likely to get accepted. So help them with that. Help them with creating their outline, help with, creating better slides, et cetera.
[00:06:49] Jill Binder: All the, Oh yeah. And then actual, speak, be becoming a better speaker is a big part of it as well. Especially a lot of people are really nervous about,there’s gonna be that person in the audience who wants to show that they know more than this person from an underrepresented group on stage.
[00:07:04] Jill Binder: So what do you do in that
[00:07:05] Sé Reed: at a tech conference that never happens.
[00:07:08] no, that’s not, And or somebody who just wants to purposely chip them up with tricky questions or you get a room of just silence and what do you do in the q a when that happens? So we have all these scripts that we give of this is what you do in those tricky situations.
[00:07:23] Sé Reed: Oh,
[00:07:23] Sé Reed: that’s
[00:07:23] Jill Binder: it feeling like, Yes, I can do this. And we’ve some really amazing already with it.
[00:07:29] Sé Reed: I think that’s just so empowering and like preparing people to, take up that space that they, need to be in and, want to be in. I just,I
[00:07:39] Jill Binder: we help people
[00:07:40] Sé Reed: so inspiring,
[00:07:41] Jill Binder: Because people don’t even consider it. And then our work, our workshop is that like people say, why can’t they just take Toastmasters? I’m like, people aren’t even considering Toastmasters cause they’re not even considering being speakers we don’t see ourselves represented.
[00:07:54] Jill Binder: Doesn’t even occur to us. And then this is like the bridge between not even putting our hands up to being like, Okay, I can do this, and now I can go start practicing, speaking, working on my skills and all that. And we have a new bridge. after the workshop, we now have a channel on Slack called the Diverse Speaker Support Channel on the WordPress Slack, which is specifically. the pandemic, groups would hold our workshop for their meetup or word camps. So there was a direct path to speaking and we had lots of results with that. And then the pandemic happened. Meetups weren’t happening so much fewer word camps. So my team started holding the workshop for the global community.
[00:08:35] and there was no direct, okay. Taken the workshop now speak. So now we have this channel so that people can find out about speaking opportunities, they can get more speaking, mentorship and also just to get to know the other speakers and the organizers cuz we don’t want it to be people just drop in post their call.
[00:08:55] Jill Binder: First for proposals and dropout, we want it to come from more genuine connections. I’ve gotten to, I got to do a little demo at your We a Meetup because we knew each other. You’re like, Hey, that person we know you get up on stage, which you know, it makes a difference already.
[00:09:12] Sé Reed: That’s so cool. O’Neil are you, have you in, Word Camp Asia in the, I don’t know, maybe you’ve done some local word camps where you are too, but for Word Camp Asia, is this, have you applied this? I don’t. And also, I don’t know your role with the, training team, but. I’m just curious of how that is as a word, camp organizer on that side
[00:09:31] Oneal Rosero: Actually, funny thing is I’ve never attended a Word camp. My involvement ever. I’ve been in using WordPress since 2007, but I’ve never actually been involved in the community. Yeah. Awesome. I’ve never done anything with the community until the. to the training team because professionally I do training, in person training and online training, but because of the tra my involvement with Jill and the training team, the make WordPress, I’ve actually been able to do online training in many different aspects.
[00:10:06] Thankfully the pandemic helped with that aspect, but not anything else. But, my work with Courtney and the others in the training team led me to meeting Jill with the diversity and we’ve actually been using the stuff that I’ve learned working with Jill. Preparing for, World Camp Asia because World Camp Asia is going to be involving what, 10, 11 time zones.
[00:10:30] Sé Reed: Like it,
[00:10:31] Oneal Rosero: are just the people in Asia and then the people coming from the US, from Europe who are getting get involved. And then we have to make sure that you have the diversity of the attendees as well as the organiz.
[00:10:45] Oneal Rosero: different countries, different languages, different cultures, religion.
[00:10:49] Oneal Rosero: So it’s very different from, just the usual world camp you have. We’ve had world camp, Sabu here in the Philippines, World Camp Manila, none of which I’ve attended until this year, and I’ve attended the meetups I’ve done online. US World Camp Europe online, but never in person. So I’ve never actually, aside from people in the Philippines, I’ve only met two people in WordPress.
[00:11:15] Jason Cosper: wow.
[00:11:16] Oneal Rosero: So in person,
[00:11:18] Sé Reed: but, And you, but you’re going to Word Camp Asia, right?
[00:11:21] Oneal Rosero: I would like to, yes,
[00:11:24] Sé Reed: If
[00:11:24] Oneal Rosero: there’s still a few months of repair.
[00:11:26] Sé Reed: Oh, okay. can I ask another question about Word Camp Asia? Just real quick, this is something I’ve really always wondered and it really pertains to diversity as well. What is, the dominant language or what is the language approach that you. For Word Camp Asia, because that is really encompassing, just so many language groups.
[00:11:46] Sé Reed: It’s just unbelievable.
[00:11:48] Oneal Rosero: Yes. that is actually funny. we are actually doing the entire work Camp Asia, in English. All of the speakers will have to do their talks in English. All of the MCs will be doing English. Primarily because we want the flagship event to be welcoming. We want everybody to be welcome. And then many people in Asia speak English.
[00:12:09] we speak two or three different languages. English may not be native for many of the attendees, but they do understand it, especially since a lot of people are working online, working with global C. Their meetings. But funny thing is sometimes, in our internal meetings, when all of the attendees in that meeting speak one language,all of them are from India. They use their, they speak in their native language, but their notes have to be in English so that they can share it with the rest of the organizing team. So they default to meeting in English anyway. And if there’s just casual discussion, that’s when they default to native language. But because we made sure that there is diversity so that everybody gets involved, there’s, It’s very rare that one entire team is coming from just one country,
[00:12:59] Oneal Rosero: how many countries we have in Asia.
[00:13:02] Sé Reed: amazing.
[00:13:03] Jason Tucker: cool.
[00:13:04] Sé Reed: Yeah. What, so what do you do with the training team specifically or with the diversity team?
[00:13:12] . Okay. With a diversity team. I’ve been helping Jill, especially when she has a workshop scheduled outside North America. So I’ve done workshops for Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Switzerland, couple of other countries, in addition to helping her out when she has a meeting in North America, Canada, South America, as long.
[00:13:37] she needs some, somebody just to co-host or somebody just to, paste stuff into the chat, usually asks me if I’m available and if it’s at this time, usually 1:00 AM in the Philippines, I’m available.
[00:13:51] Sé Reed: That’s
[00:13:52] Jill Binder: And there’s a whole other cool initiative, O’Neil, that you and Devon started that you might wanna mention.
[00:14:01] in May of this year, 2022, we started the WP Diversity PAC Network building, Asia Pacific Network Building. We want people within the Asia Pacific region to be, to realize that they are diverse, they are, different. Use that to be able to use that difference, Use the capabilities that they have to be able to network with others within their region, outside the region, and globally with work, with personal lives and make their voices heard.
[00:14:34] Oneal Rosero: Similar to what Jill has been doing with the, workshops in that she’s done before, but we want my focus, along with, Devon, who’s from I. Who’s also, very involved with their work camps, with their meetups, and to be able to reach out to more people within the Asia Pacific region and outside, or people who have come from Asia Pacific and travel moved to Europe, moved to the us They need to be able to be encouraged that their voices are heard as well as everybody.
[00:15:07] Jason Cosper: Yep.
[00:15:07] and do you mean that,both in terms of, or how do you mean that in terms of maybe have their voices heard at a local level and that, or are you also speaking in terms of the larger just WordPress community or the larger global community as well? what,it’s always both. It’s always, you can start off locally and then you start off with the company you work with. You talk during your, weekly standups. You talk during your monthly, meetings, and then expand. Do start doing your. Your work camps, your meetups, and then do your international meetups.
[00:15:37] it’s, for some people you start small and then go big. For some people it’s, you go big and then you go local. There’s always many ways in there, and we are here to help out with the diverse speaker support, channel to encourage people to find their voice, to find. What their expertise is, and then build on that and then find what else they’re good at.
[00:15:59] Oneal Rosero: And then encourage other people to be able to do the same, especially people who are not as visible in the normal world camp in the use of world camp events, especially internationally, which is also what we’re trying to do with, World Asia. And then we’re also encouraging the smaller world camps, the smaller meetups to have more diverse speakers. People who have never tried it before. So take our training, take the training event, the workshop, and then find the things that you are an expert on, and then build on that, and then, yes.
[00:16:35] Jason Cosper: Yeah, no. so Aneal,you hit on something interesting and, just as, somebody who, I, I have said,jokingly, Oh yeah, I’ll be at that word camp. Just look, for the big white guy with a beard, like a lot of people look like me. a lot of the people speak.
[00:16:53] Jason Tucker: idea what you’re talking about.
[00:16:55] Jason Cosper: Look like me.
[00:16:56] so how I have actually, applied at fewer word camps over the past. of course, pandemic, but the past four years or so, because people have heard enough from people who look like me. what? and so my question is for both you O’Neal and Jill, what. Folks like me do to help lift up, voices from actual diverse speakers so we get other perspectives than just,another, another white guy with a beard.
[00:17:32] Jill Binder: Should I take this one o’?
[00:17:34] Oneal Rosero: Go ahead. Go ahead.
[00:17:35] yeah, so I’ve heard about a lot of people, stopping applying from speaking and I don’t know if that’s the best thing, cuz we really want a mix of voices. we don’t want it to then become only white women or,it, it should really
[00:17:49] Sé Reed: Or only the really obnoxious white guys who are playing no matter what that need to do that work. Cause that’s, you’re collecting all the kind of people who are being more self-aware out then
[00:18:00] but there are absolutely, there’s actually things in our program that I can tell you about that are things that you can do. one is, we’re looking for speaker mentors in our diverse speaker support channel. So if you want to like, This is something you can do in our channel or just help people individually.
[00:18:17] Jill Binder: Like I was helped by the what I call the well represented people in my community. just be that person who can help somebody figure out their talk topic and figure out. lean on for asking how to become a better speaker and things like that. And also in our channel we actually have people asking speaker questions.
[00:18:37] so it’d be great to have more people who have done a lot of speaking help answer. And the other thing,I’ve mentioned two of our three programs, and this is a great chance to mention our third program. So the first program is our speaker workshop. The second is our new dinner speaker support channel, and our other is one year old.
[00:18:55] Jill Binder: Which is our organizing diverse and inclusive events workshop. So this is specifically for anybody who is interested in WordPress, but especially the people who organize meetups and word camps. anybody who wants to be good allies. To learn, the different aspects that it takes to make your event more diverse so that people feel more included and don’t just show up once and go Oh, that was a bad experience, but actually wanna come back and wanna bring more people to.
[00:19:26] and so we talk about some mindset shifts. We talk about what it takes to create a cohesive community that feels good for everyone, even when. People who don’t look like you and come from different background at the event as well. speakers, that’s one of my sections. how to get more diverse speaker lineups.
[00:19:43] how to create the environment, there’s. Accessibility things to think about. and then allyship, how to be a good ally when those difficult situations come up, what do you do? How do you deal with those situations? As well as basics of learning about other cultures and stuff so that you’re more aware.
[00:20:01] and then little tips. Like one of my favorite tips is about listening. when somebody says something, we love having people from different backgrounds come in, but then people are gonna have different perspectives from our own that may not feel comfortable to hear. So instead of shutting those people down, going, we don’t do it that way, saying, changing the words to say something like, I hadn’t thought of that before.
[00:20:25] Jill Binder: Tell me more. And then you can go off and think about it later, but you haven’t shut the person down and you feel like they can share in that moment. and then you have time to process and maybe, hopefully incorporate what they suggested as well. So there’s lots of practical tips like that.
[00:20:41] as a follow up to that, yes, I am writing with crayon. do you, when so I’ve been on an organizing team looking at speaker,applications and as an organizing team, you’re always pressed for time and press for volunteers and press for whatever. So you wanna just go through that or make sure everyone who sees everything needs the vote on it or whatever.
[00:21:01] Sé Reed: But it occurred to me that when I was looking at some of these that, the. Even for the kind of prepared people, the idea was still nascent and could be worked, shopped on, but I feel that the expectation both on the applicant side and on the organizer side is that, At the moment of application, this idea must be the pristine idea as opposed to, Oh, this seems like a really cool speaker that we could amplify in our community, and maybe this isn’t the exact talk we want, but how could we work with them to modify this or workshop this to fill a spot that we have, Even if that’s not necessarily like what they applied for or what they applied with, is that
[00:21:43] Jill Binder: I love that people have actually done that with me. They’re like, We love that you’ve applied, but we want a different talk from you.
[00:21:50] Jill Binder: I love that. I’m like, Yes,
[00:21:52] Sé Reed: definitely
[00:21:53] Jill Binder: talk you want from me, and if I love it, then I will do it.
[00:21:57] Sé Reed: Yeah. Like it makes you feel very wanted as a community member. and then I just, I wonder, I think that’s about resetting expectations on both sides, because I think word camps are the perfect place for that. We all, especially local work camps, we’re really like, it is intended to be workshopping, it is intended to be building the community.
[00:22:20] Sé Reed: So that type of approach, I don’t think it is currently built into most organizing schedules. So that is, I think, really more of a logistics problem. But maybe if that was something that became a bigger part of Word Camp, where it really, it like incorporating what you were just talking about. That type of stuff where you really are thinking about, the application doesn’t even have to be that end point.
[00:22:43] Sé Reed: It can be, just just apply. Declare your desire to be part of this conversation and, we can really then craft a word camp that, isn’t just, built around, what did everyone think they should apply with, but like something that really resonates locally, like with the people and the topics.
[00:23:01] Sé Reed: Like I feel like there’s space for that in Word Camp
[00:23:04] Jill Binder: Yeah.
[00:23:05] Sé Reed: globally. There’s
[00:23:06] Jill Binder: I love that. That is such a good idea. Yeah. and then if it’s possible to have, everybody’s pressed for time, but if it is possible to get one person dedicated to that and nothing else, then that person can have time, which is tough cuz as you said, it’s always hard to wrangle the people.
[00:23:20] Jill Binder: Especially, I don’t know about you, but for me, especially during the pandemic, there’s been a much fewer people available. But it’s a great thing to strive toward.
[00:23:29] Sé Reed: Yeah, and I think we’re getting back to, thankfully always with the caveat of, I think, maybe we’re getting back to in person events, so hopefully this will we have a chance to revisit word camps and what they, I think we all have noticed, I have personally noticed that they really affect my.
[00:23:47] Sé Reed: I want, I missed them. Like I missed the community. I missed the knowledge sharing. there is a big part of WordPress that is about that. And so if we all value it more, then we can really show up with this. Like applying these principles that are available right to any word, Camp organizer and Word camp
[00:24:06] yes, they are available to anybody. me tell you more. I know we’re wrapping up shortly, but I’ll just quickly say, so the page that you brought up, just now, tiny.cc/wp diversity. You can see our live workshops and there’s also links to. videos on Learn Repress if you wanna watch them at any time on your own.
[00:24:29] Jill Binder: So at the top there, there’s our upcoming events. and then throughout we have links to, the videos and we also have the videos in different languages that, that’s been a big push. And now we’ve got a good handful of languages, which are all listed in there as well.
[00:24:44] Sé Reed: It’s so exciting. Can, real quick, I know we only have a couple minutes, but the whole reason I wanted , what I really, what I, the whole reason this is inspired by was we were doing, these workshops in India I read about and I know you’re doing another one tomorrow. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?
[00:25:00] Jill Binder: Cuz I just think it’s Yeah.
[00:25:02] Sé Reed: Just, it’s so encouraging and inspiring to me. So please, can you talk a little bit about it?
[00:25:07] Jill Binder: yeah, so there’s some parts of the world that, where specifically women’s voices and just women empowerment in general are not,it needs more work. And for a few years now, we’ve run workshops for women in India and women in Latin America. other years we were teaching them how to run our workshop, and this year, Delivering the workshop right to them.
[00:25:26] last month we had, about 20 people from India, including those who watched the reporting after their public speaking, self-reported public speaking confidence score went up the highest of any of my workshops, 137%. My highest previously was 60%, which is also amazing. But this was 137%, which.
[00:25:49] Jill Binder: Incredible. and people have joined our diverse speaker support channel are starting to ask questions, which is amazing. So that was super successful and I’m hoping to have the same thing tomorrow. Tomorrow’s is a full day in person workshop, except I’m gonna be over Zoom because I’ve health issues and I cannot travel and I can’t be in rooms with lots of people, but they’re gonna have 50 people in a hotel in San Jose with three big screens of Jill’s face.
[00:26:13] Jill Binder: That’s gonna be exciting. . And we have, A language interpreter, who’s gonna interpret back and forth between English and Spanish over headsets, which is gonna be super cool. and yeah, that I’m really looking forward to. when people start speaking on stage, some of those people go on to do more things as
[00:26:33] so many
[00:26:33] Jill Binder: really excites me about this, it’s
[00:26:35] Sé Reed: They’re just,
[00:26:35] Jill Binder: want the voices, but also what happens next? Okay. Yeah. Say, no. I.
[00:26:41] Sé Reed: I’m just excited about, I’m clapping for
[00:26:43] Jill Binder: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:44] Sé Reed: feel like every person that you, especially I’m especially, the women in these countries, like every woman that you’re giving kind, it’s like you’re lighting a spark. This is so cheesy. I’m gonna sound like start to cry probably, but you’re like lighting a spark in them and they, when they feel empowered in their work especially, and can feel confident in what they’re doing.
[00:27:04] Sé Reed: Like they inspire other women, they inspire other women around them, and that is a cumulative effect. And so those 20 people in India and those 50 people tomorrow in, in, in San Jose, like they are definitely going to go on and inspire their communities and their friends and their families. And I just, I get Literally worked up thinking that like WordPress can bring that to people because it is this universal tool and universal thing that we’re using, and I’m just so happy you’re bringing that to those people and also bringing us all together, WordPress is really doing that and it’s just
[00:27:42] Jill Binder: Yeah.
[00:27:44] Sé Reed: it’s cheesy it, but
[00:27:47] Jill Binder: Yay.
[00:27:47] Sé Reed: Thank you. Thank you for your work.
[00:27:51] Jason Tucker: That wraps it up for today. I wanna say thank you, Jill and O’Neil for hanging out with us. We really appreciate it. the links for everything that we’ve been talking about will be in our show notes, so feel free to go take a look at that, the description down below and you can, find all those things there.
[00:28:04] Jason Tucker: And I do wanna say thank you very much for everyone who helped us out with getting us on LinkedIn. So now we’re streaming to the C-suite, so all those folks will be able to ignore us over there as well. Yay,
[00:28:13] Jason Tucker: talk, talk later. You have a good one. See ya.
[00:28:16] Sé Reed: Hi.
[00:28:18] Jason Tucker: Jokes aside, you can go over to Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, wherever it is that you wanna listen to a
[00:28:25] Sé Reed: We’re everywhere.
[00:28:26] Jason Tucker: is at. So feel free to go hang out with us over there and listen to us there as well. Talk to y’all later.
[00:28:32] Jason Tucker: Share this with someone. We’d really appreciate it.
[00:28:35] Sé Reed: maybe not on Twitter though, maybe in Discord. Come see us in the discard.
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