[00:00:00] Jason Tucker: This is episode number 433 of WPwatercooler, WordPress 6.1 for those about to block. I’m Jason Tucker. You find me at Jason Tucker on Twitter,
[00:00:22] Jason Cosper: Sé Reed is muted.
[00:00:24] Jason Tucker: and she’s muted.
[00:00:26] Sé Reed: That was muted. That’s so sad.
[00:00:28] Jason Cosper: And y’all know who it is. It’s your boy, Jason Cosper, AKA Fatman, back at it again on the world’s most influential WordPress podcast.
[00:00:35] Jason Tucker: Speak in a podcast. Go to Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Audible, Spotify, wherever you’re listening to us and you come hang out with us over in Discord. The link is in the description. Blue
[00:00:47] Sé Reed: thing about the discord is that I don’t forget to mute, Unmute myself. it’s 10 years in and I know what we’re doing. I totally do. I did this awesome. A SMR like countdown specifically for John Day trip. Yes.
[00:01:05] Jason Tucker: Nice.
[00:01:06] Sé Reed: it didn’t go through because,
[00:01:09] it, Yeah.
[00:01:10] Sé Reed: here’s six point Wonderwall I used your line. Sorry, I had to . It’s, we’re doing it people, it’s early. Because usually we do the 6.1 chit chat after it comes out. But I think we were just all feeling a little bit like, we’ve done a lot of like hard topics lately, so we wanted to do something that was a little, just a little slower, Maybe just a little easier.
[00:01:38] Sé Reed: Okay, good. I’ll keep doing the Sorry, I get, if you make a request in the chat, it is going
[00:01:44] Sé Reed: to us directly, so you definitely used it wisely.
[00:01:50] Jason Tucker: So
[00:01:50] Sé Reed: anyway, who, I have lots to say about 6.1. I did not this morning, but I do now. And, I,who wants
[00:01:56] Jason Tucker: Yeah. I’ve heard folks saying that there isn’t a lot to this update.
[00:02:01] Sé Reed: Who has said that they are liars? Oh,
[00:02:03] Jason Tucker: you go
[00:02:04] They’re not informed correctly.
[00:02:07] Jason Tucker: you go look. And 6.1 is chalk full of stuff. There’s a lot of stuff
[00:02:13] Sé Reed: I think that this episode, this is not this episode, this release is the release that web developers were like imagining. When Gutenberg first came out, I think this, we’re here now, we’re like at the thing where web developers were like, This could be like mildly threatening and then it wasn’t at all threatening.
[00:02:35] Sé Reed: I was like, but now I’m looking at it in a kind of different way and I’m seeing, obviously anything could be threatening, jobs. Tech can be, What’s the good word for it? Obl. Not obliterated. Ob. Not obfuscated.
[00:02:54] Jason Tucker: That was last episode.
[00:02:55] Sé Reed: No one has this word for me.
[00:02:57] Jason Tucker: No, it’s okay.
[00:02:59] Sé Reed: Obsoleted. That’s not a word, but Made obsolete.
[00:03:02] Sé Reed: Made obsolete.
[00:03:10] Sé Reed: I went to see, I was writing my WordPress,profile up for some reason. And, I went to see, I went on web archive web way back machine to see my first, when I did make my first, I had my very first WordPress website. And, in the way back machine, the site, like right before it turns to WordPress, it displays a giant picture that says Adobe Flash is not supported.
[00:03:31] Jason Tucker: Yeah,
[00:03:33] Sé Reed: I was like, that’s what I made the switch. It’s right there. 2006 where it
[00:03:38] Jason Tucker: So you were asking how to start this off. If I had to pick one thing, the one thing is probably going to be, the fluid, type, typography that by far I think is going to be the big one for me, is just the simple fact that it’s gonna just pick the font size that it needs and resize it depending on your small, medium, large, and however it is that you work out all of those sizes and how
[00:04:04] Jason Tucker: But about doing.
[00:04:04] Sé Reed: to say real quick, I just, I really dislike actively, I don’t like actively dislike a lot of things even in ui, but I actively dislike the small, medium, large foam picker. don’t know
[00:04:16] Jason Tucker: name it whatever you want.
[00:04:17] Sé Reed: I don’t. I’m just like, Oh, that’s so annoying. I think, I don’t know, maybe it’s like too fast foodie or like something, It just, something about it.
[00:04:26] Jason Tucker: Yeah.
[00:04:27] Sé Reed: Feels or maybe just cuz it’s been so clunky, , it’s just like Matt. I don’t know. Anyway, that’s just a personal preference. I, especially with the responsive, sizes, that will be very helpful.
[00:04:41] Jason Tucker: Yeah. And if you wanna play with that, Frost wp, Brian Gardners went and put that in his, frost WP, plug or theme. So if you wanna go check that out, just to play around with it in your,Your local dev environment, feel free to go play around with that. it’s really cool looking and it’ll work really nice once you, if you’re running the, the beta
[00:05:00] Jason Cosper: Or just do what I do and put everything in production because nothing matters.
[00:05:05] Sé Reed: I’ve actually, I’ve done that with my, my Sare media side is now just, because it’s not even my company anymore, So it’s now just a, I don’t, there’s like old content, I’m just playing with it. So if you go there now, there’s just some stuff. I don’t even know what’s happening on that side at all. But it is like a playground, but I think that the, I don’t, I think this is also finally the release where, The full site editing and the block, the Gutenberg and full site editing are emerging. Do you, have you experienced that at all?
[00:05:36] Jason Cosper: I mean it’s definitely getting a little more, cohesive.
[00:05:41] It doesn’t feel as much like two separate things Exactly.
[00:05:45] Yeah. it definitely is, starting to feel just more, more instead of, we were just talking about this like a release or two ago. in five nine, it was five nine, right when they merged, when they finally said, Okay, full sight editor, it’s supported now,it’s taken.
[00:06:03] Jason Tucker: Two releases the better part of this past year to get to a point where it’s like, Oh, okay, this actually feels like,a unified thing instead of, here is this thing that where we edit our posts and, over here you can do site stuff. Yeah.
[00:06:20] Sé Reed: Maybe if you want to. I’m, I do think it’s still, it’s definitely not seamless and I was, the most exciting thing for me. I’m sorry, Jason, were you done talking about the fluid typography? Oh yeah, we’re.
[00:06:31] Sé Reed: okay. Cause I was gonna say, I think, the most exciting thing for me are the, the core editor improvements.
[00:06:38] there’s a, here, I’ll send this link over that, was a, I like, go around my microphone, sorry. from Anne McCarthy, who is basically been just running the full site editing show for. were, I would consider them to be the showrunner of full sight editing, if that is a good translation, cross-industry, term for it.
[00:06:58] Sé Reed: Cause I don’t think we have a term for it. I know that they are the,editor, triage, lead this release cycle. But definitely Anne has been leading the full site editing charge. when I was going through This is what I was talking about in terms of this is what seems to me to be finally actually, because it has now, you can add the fonts, you can add the styles, you can add your spacing and your dimensions and all of that.
[00:07:23] Sé Reed: This is finally, equivalent with a page builder, because I still don’t think that it was last, even just six one. It was just a glorified like TinyMCE. A little bit, it was like just a little bit better than that. But this with the block controls that are here now, it really is nuanced and you can go, if you’re doing this from the front end, you can get so detailed.
[00:07:46] Sé Reed: You could change every single little bit of your page. And I wonder. This is where the merging with FSE comes in because obviously these controls are extremely useful to have on your templates because then you are, if you’re, for example, one of these examples they show is styling the social icons.
[00:08:08] Sé Reed: So that makes sense. If you’re putting your styled social icons in your footer, for example. I just had this vision of everyone, all of these users, just ignoring the ING part because it’s definitely still confusing and I don’t think that it is, super intuitive in terms of just like understanding how they go together and I understand how templates work and I still don’t find it intuitive or maybe that’s the problem, I’m not sure.
[00:08:34] Sé Reed: But, I think.
[00:08:35] Sé Reed: can see that there’s, there is quite a bit here. That’s still, left to be done, Yeah, I don’t know which of, are these graphics updated? I don’t know if these are dynamic graphics
[00:08:45] Jason Tucker: No, probably
[00:08:46] Sé Reed: Yeah. But, so I think this is from September. So a lot of this might have been, it, there, there are so many. They’ve basically put typography and borders and styled, into every single block.
[00:08:59] Sé Reed: But this, so this is my question. I really envision, or not my question, but just my concern I suppose. Maybe it’s not a concern, but I envision all of these end users ignoring the whole FSE ing component and just inline styling every detail of the page. And I think that’s really interesting from a control perspective.
[00:09:21] Sé Reed: Like it almost makes each page like the possibility to be an indi individual work of art, which is very interesting and has a lot of applic. , but it definitely turns the whole concept of like CSS and style.
[00:09:37] Jason Tucker: style sheets.
[00:09:38] Sé Reed: Yeah. Like it turns that whole concept of not doing inline styling on its head. So this is still back to that thing where I still feel like we’re like in the, we’re like going really retro.
[00:09:51] this is it the, my specification of WordPress Maybe where you can then like edit every. Thing with like your HTML styling,
[00:09:59] Jason Tucker: style sheet.
[00:10:01] Sé Reed: receiving style sheets.
[00:10:03] Jason Cosper: the, the thing that I have, always argued for is to let WordPress be a little more weird. So I actually wouldn’t mind the, my specification of WordPress,I don’t think you’re gonna avoid it. I think it’s
[00:10:16] Sé Reed: is
[00:10:17] and I’m absolutely certain that,any, designer focused listeners that we have are like, Oh no, please, no.
[00:10:24] all of. Yeah, all of the improvements that have been made to, to theme json, I saw someone frame it the other day about why don’t you just write this as css? Like, why are you shoveling everything into json to then be converted into to css, but effectively, like it is letting you make,a style guide for.
[00:10:44] Jason Cosper: Your site, which I think is such like a cool and decent way to go about doing things. But like you said, say you have to put the stuff in the right place for that to even work correctly.
[00:10:57] Sé Reed: Yeah, I think we’re gonna have a huge, and I think this, we’ll probably see we people, we’ll probably see a lot of this on wordpress.com because that is definitely a more user-centered, WordPress base, obviously like end user centered in terms of like people who are operating their own thing as opposed to someone who is a developer in between, although of course that exists, but less.
[00:11:18] so I think, and obviously this is getting fully implemented on.com, so I think you’re gonna, we could start to see that innovation. I would love to find out if there’s some sort of way to, talking about status or tracking stats or anything . Not that’s controversial, but I would love to see. this evolves, is there a way to find out who is using the full site editing part of it versus just the front end and is like every page, it’s all gonna be 2022, but every page is like, just individually coded. And then I think we’re gonna get there and you’re gonna be, you’re gonna see the word press get weird.
[00:11:54] Sé Reed: Like it’s gonna get weird before people realize that the template editor is there and how it works. and that whole process continues to get iterated. Because it’s gonna keep getting better. It is getting better. They’re making it better all the time. So I think I, I’m hopeful that , so it’s kinda like a two ways, one, I’d like a template editor get better so that we don’t have this time where it’s just all inline styling and a bunch of sites get locked into just I don’t, What is that export like?
[00:12:23] Sé Reed: I don’t even know.
[00:12:24] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. a lot of inline stuff apparently.
[00:12:27] Sé Reed: guess you could probably just take all your content out still. I don’t know. I have not looked at the, Looked at the export data lately.
[00:12:38] and the thing is this is coming out on November 1st, so we’ll be doing dev branch like that week. So we’ll definitely have to talk about some of that, like more technical sides of it. So you have a little bit to, to study up on that, say and
[00:12:51] Sé Reed: Good. You don’t have to have all the answers right this second.
[00:12:54] Jason Tucker: So another one of these things that I’m super interested in is the custom textonomy terms.
[00:13:00] I’ve been playing around with a whole bunch of these different plugins to figure out like what’s the best one. And what’s funny is I was doing this while I was running, like the current build, not the rc, build. I installed the RC build. I’m like, Oh, this exists. What? Okay. So I don’t need those plugins anymore.
[00:13:16] Jason Tucker: All right,
[00:13:16] Jason Tucker: slash taxonomy. And I’m good to go.
[00:13:18] Sé Reed: like this release feels like it is,obviously, a all the work that ACF has been doing with blocks and bringing the, custom data into blocks. I have not done a full, deep dive into this particular, custom taxonomy block, but it does seem to me that this is a way to,this would eventually surpass or supplant, I guess you would say, the need for that type of block because it would just be an inherent query block that you can design and style and pull your custom taxonomy and pull your custom post types and pull your custom fields. and then, you can make custom fields in WordPress. Like you can make it like you don’t need ACF to make custom fields. so I, I this I keep coming back through this release feels to me like, it is finally showing the, disruption. That just use an industry term, the disruption that was anticipated like five years ago when Gutenberg first came out.
[00:14:25] Sé Reed: I think we’re seeing that starting in this release because not that it’s gonna, totally make web developers or designers obsolete. It’s just gonna really, it’s really changing how that flow works and how that works because, You have to retool your entire workflow to incorporate different versions of this.
[00:14:47] I’m going to have to, I’ve already on some hybrid sites that I have, I spend a lot of time pulling things out of the Gutenberg, panel. so they’re panels, they’re no longer meta boxees, they’re panels and, I had to learn how to pull those out so that my clients aren’t, setting things, especially when I’m using ACF fields for data input or whatever.
[00:15:05] I’m spending a lot of time pulling things out and turning things off, and I think that’s,
[00:15:10] Jason Tucker: Which
[00:15:12] Sé Reed: interesting.
[00:15:13] Jason Tucker: Yeah, I imagine you’re probably going to like the fact that you can now like do some of those, locking elements so that you’re able to lock things down a little bit better, which is gonna be, pretty nice. I’m looking on Quinta’s, write up that they did, for this. And they wrote that, lock inside container block with one click, which,
[00:15:33] Sé Reed: Yeah, you can lock the whole structure. you can walk the whole thing down as opposed to having to lock individual elements, which is a very pain. It is a pain. Yeah. Somewhere around some place it is a pain. so that’s definitely great. I, have
[00:15:48] Jason Tucker: check box is good. Or the little, whatever that is. you can do, apply these to all the child blocks as well. That’s ridiculously handy cuz it just cascades down
[00:16:00] Sé Reed: I wonder, if it’s possible. Now, I don’t actually know the answer to this question, so if anyone in the audience knows or if either of great to know or I’ll go look it up afterwards. but is, are you able to restrict yet blocks by roll?
[00:16:13] Jason Tucker: Ooh, I don’t know if we.
[00:16:15] Sé Reed: Are we there yet? Cause that’s coming, that’s coming. If we’re locking blocks, then we should be able to say, subscriber, can get into these blocks and not subscriber, obviously subscribers can’t do anything. editors or whatever can get into different things. And then, we’re really talking about supplanting a lot of different plugins that.
[00:16:33] Sé Reed: Come up. in fact, I actually just saw, I was, salt trying to solve a problem for, I don’t remember what it was, but I came across a plugin in the repo that had just been, basically, obsoleted, by a feature they had improved in, in 6.0. So they were like, you can install this plugin if you want, but it’s totally moot now.
[00:16:52] that’s really interesting. We have all of. it’s interesting from a legacy debt standpoint that we have all of these, plugins that are basically like, that is now included in WordPress, so I don’t have, so there’s no point in developing this further. But then we’re talking about, backwards compatibility.
[00:17:08] Sé Reed: How do you switch from some of those existing structures and plugins that you have in place that might be sun setting, And then over to the new one. So if web developers are looking for work, that would be, I , it’s an area I think you might wanna get into. The transitioning of, existing plugin structures to the new structure, cuz it’s all the same data in theory.
[00:17:31] Jason Tucker: But does that person go in and start contributing to essentially what they’ve been, worked out of a job for ’em and start contributing more into, Cuz most of these plugins are free, obviously, but that person could go and say, You know what, I just wanna start, I have all this extra stuff that is gonna write into mine.
[00:17:48] Jason Tucker: I’m just gonna write this into Core now because it’s now part of, the type of thing that I’m working
[00:17:53] that’d be cool. I don’t know if that’s gonna happen. I think it could happen if we as a community, were proactive in. In addressing this change, I think the split of the, develop the developer camp and the anti Gutenberg camp and that, just the different feelings about this, it always comes down to feelings with WordPress.
[00:18:14] is that, is preventing us from having cohesive conversations about. This transition truly, and I know these conversations are absolutely happening. Courtney is, Courtney, Robertson is doing so much work over on Learn WP to make sure that the documents are there and that, people have this information.
[00:18:34] Sé Reed: To know how to use it. oh, there was a new course, that was just published on, Learn wp that is like a full course of how to build a block. and I hope we’ll be able to have that author on to talk about that at some point. But, so I know she’s doing a lot of that work, but what about those plugin developers whose stuff is just sunseted or the companies that are set up that are just finding, the page builder companies, all of those folks, like there are people that work at those companies.
[00:19:03] Sé Reed: There are, there’s so many people who use those products and I think that not talking about that as a community, as an ecosystem comprehensively and just being like, core’s over here doing its thing and the plugins are just gonna keep doing their thing over here and try to hope that it works.
[00:19:20] I think, I feel like we’re making a split. We’re like splitting ourselves. In a weird way. And so Core is like we’re doing our thing and we’re marching along and everyone else is I don’t know.
[00:19:31] Sé Reed: No,I get it. I get it. Yeah. Does it feel like that to.
[00:19:36] it does, but I think,I think the thing is that core, the people working on this project need to look at. What divvy, Beaver Builder and all these folks have already done and watch if you, if they can watch the things that they changed and how they changed them as they were going along through their development cycles.
[00:19:55] Jason Tucker: Because that, that right there is going to tell you like, yeah, just because you can do something is necessarily be the right way to do it. And looking at how some of these other folks have been doing it. And not to say that they’re a hundred percent correct cuz there’s definitely things in Beaver Builder that drive me nuts.
[00:20:10] Jason Tucker: But there are things that are that, Gutenberg’s years behind and FSE is definitely the years behind
[00:20:17] Sé Reed: Yeah, but it has the, I don’t know if it’s second mover or last mover, or there’s like some expression for, because it has the benefit of all of that. It can see the fully developed, stages of, and when I say it,
[00:20:29] Jason Tucker: But they would have to, That’s the thing. Like they, they should look at that
[00:20:34] I think that they are, to a certain extent I’ve seen, it feels like there’s similarities there, but honestly, a lot of this is just common sense when you’re trying to do a thing, like it makes sense to put typography and borders and a border radius.
[00:20:47] these are just I don’t feel like a lot of, it’s not so much the innovation is happening in terms of features. It’s just that innovation is happening in terms of those features being available. Here. So cuz like I don’t think that there’s anything in this release that is new on the. Not to my knowledge anyway, so it’s all just stuff that’s getting packed in there.
[00:21:10] and with the amount of stuff that’s in six one, I think that is exactly part of being able to be last mover, cuz you can be like, All right, we need all this in here and we need all this in here. It’s like a supermarket sweep, they’re just like going down the aisles of the page builder and they’re like, We need all these things.
[00:21:26] no. We need all these ones,
[00:21:29] Jason Tucker: you were gonna say something
[00:21:31] so I really.
[00:21:34] Jason Tucker: Where to.
[00:21:35] Jason Cosper: Yeah. I really feel Gutenberg is walking this path that all of its predecessors paved, effectively. there were, the initial, page builders that were out there cutting the trail. the people who, came after. I would say especially like Elementor paved the road and now,the big wheels of Gutenberg are just
[00:22:00] Sé Reed: Big Gutenberg.
[00:22:02] Jason Cosper: Yeah. it’s,it’s like one of those dump trucks,that are just have the gigantic wheels and it’s just barreling down the middle of this road. Yeah.
[00:22:10] Sé Reed: That’s actually a great visual. I like see it with a G on it. It’s like going down.
[00:22:16] but I really,I am happy that we continue to get these refinements. I, appreciate all the work that is being put into this. and, yeah, you know what, we’re not. doing anything that is necessarily, unique that sets, WordPress apart from any of the other content management systems.
[00:22:38] Jason Cosper: My hope is that,I’m gonna bring it back to Tumblr now that, Guten,
[00:22:43] Sé Reed: I was gonna talk about tum.
[00:22:46] Jason Cosper: Now that Gutenberg is in Tumblr as like an experimental editor mode now that they put, Gutenberg into Tumblr. when do we start getting Tumblr in our Gutenberg? When do we start getting these, fun, experimental,when do post formats come back?
[00:23:05] Sé Reed: That’s all you ever want is post tts.
[00:23:08] Jason Cosper: that’s, it’s like
[00:23:09] Sé Reed: Tumblr already. Oh God. Okay. I, One more thing, I have one
[00:23:13] Jason Cosper: it is the windmill. It is the windmill that I keep tilting at. I know that this is I am Don Quixote and I
[00:23:20] Sé Reed: you.
[00:23:21] Jason Cosper: forever going on about post formats, but
[00:23:25] Sé Reed: I, You know what? Here’s the thing. You’re gonna get ’em, They’re gonna come back because they’re, they were Matt Mullen, Wiggs Dream, and he’s got Tumblr. And he did say at the, at Word Camp us that he envisions Gutenberg, my Gutenberg being. wider spread even than WordPress. So that does tell you a little bit about the, trajectory.
[00:23:46] Sé Reed: I do want in the last two minutes, just to say real quick some things about the folks who were on this release, cycle. and there’s some really interesting stuff here. Some of things didn’t get put into the release cycle, like WebP, bit of a controversy about that whole deal. go ask some people about that, Not me.
[00:24:03] but I did that. there’s some great people on this team, like we said, Ann, McCarthy has really been just flying the flag for it, this whole time. But it did wanna just observe And we have two minutes left. so I did a quick count of the folks on the team and just check their sponsored status cuz I’m always really interested to know of, who is working on this stuff and, Matt, Mullenweg. I was gonna say a title, but then I was like, I don’t have a title to give. co-founder of WordPress, was the release lead. And, it, that role is really interesting if you look at it in terms of get commits and things like that. but, there were nine automats, nine fo folks on this team sponsored by automatic.
[00:24:49] and there was, huh.
[00:24:51] Jason Cosper: Is that it nine?
[00:24:53] Sé Reed: It’s not the whole team. there’s one from GoDaddy, one from 10 up, one from, WP and G. That’s Nick Diego, who’s been really doing the rounds. He’s a core editor, core triage editor with Ann and, one from X, wp. And then,it looks like four to five independent folks, who are sponsored by smaller, companies, including Rich Tabor who. Sify, I think, which,so that’s really interesting just from like a, these folks, like he’s the design lead working on this from a really small company. but there were also two other automatic folks who helped shape the release squad in general. when we’re talking about all the stuff we talked about last week, in the week before and, the data, and we’re talking about core development and release.
[00:25:39] Sé Reed: I think it’s really important to look at who is actually on the team. and how that team gets chosen. That’s important as well. But with those numbers, like without automatic, That wouldn’t like, I don’t know what would fill that spot, but that’s nine people who are basically paid full-time and most of them are primarily full-time on, Matt Mullenweg is not full-time on WordPress, but, eight people who are in theory full-time on WordPress, who are dedicating their time to this.
[00:26:08] plus, all the rest of the folks from the other companies. It’s free, but it’s not free. So this was paid for this work time that went into this release and all the releases is being paid for by companies. That is just something that’s, I think, really important to remember because it isn’t just people who are making WordPress.
[00:26:26] Sé Reed: It is people who are sponsored to do that, by certain companies. And I’m not making a value judgment on whether that’s right or wrong. Whatever it is. I’m just pointing it out. , that’s all.
[00:26:39] it’s free as in someone else’s beer.
[00:26:41] Sé Reed: It’s free as in, you’re at someone’s party and they’re giving you beer,
[00:26:44] Jason Tucker: Yep. Yep.
[00:26:46] Sé Reed: you’re not sure if there was a cover charge, but you can’t find your wallet.
[00:26:49] say thank you very much for that final thought. I appreciate that. All right, thank you very much for hanging out with us today. Like I said, we will be definitely talking about this, next month when we get into Deb branch and maybe, get talking about some of those sorts of things. we’ll see how that goes and we’ll talk to y’all later.
[00:27:06] Jason Tucker: Bye bye. Go over to jp.com/subscribe, subscribe to us over there.
[00:27:14] Sé Reed: Subscribe.
[00:27:15] Jason Tucker: I built a nice little subscribing thing over there and it’s super fun, so go check it out.
[00:27:19] Sé Reed: did you it in Gutenberg.
[00:27:21] Jason Tucker: Lastly, make sure you go over to our LinkedIn and follow us over there. We’d really appreciate it. We would love to be able to stream over there. Talk to you later.
[00:27:28] Jason Tucker: Bye-bye.
[00:27:29] Sé Reed: Bye. See you in the discard.
[00:27:34] Jason Tucker: And we’re not out.