This week on the show we’re discussing the future of WordPress themes. We asked core contributor Alain Schlesser to join us, Alain wrote a great thread on Twitter about this. I have a feeling we have a multi-part “theme” series on our hands.
This week on the show we’re discussing the future of WordPress themes. We asked core contributor Alain Schlesser to join us, Alain wrote a great thread on Twitter about this. I have a feeling we have a multi-part “theme” series on our hands.
[00:00:00] Jason Tucker: This is episode number 421 WPwatercooler. The theme is dead long. Live the theme. I’m Jason Tucker find me @ Jason Tucker on Twitter. This is Steve Zehngut. Steve isnt, not here today. I think he’s playing golf or something. She Sé, Reed, she has her computer muted over at Sé Reed media and other things. And Cosper Jason
[00:00:41] Sé Reed: That’s so ridiculous.
[00:00:43] Jason Tucker: Jason Cosper is not here yet either, but he’ll be here soon.
[00:00:46] Sé Reed: I didn’t know I was muted.
[00:00:48] Jason Tucker: We’re go to apple podcast, Google podcast in Spotify to check us out and leave us a review.
[00:00:55] Jason Tucker: We would appreciate.
[00:00:56] Sé Reed: been nine and a half years. I totally know how to unmute myself on the show. Cool.
[00:01:02] Jason Tucker: I don’t know that the whole thing’s messed up. The intro was like not working right at all.
[00:01:06] Sé Reed: Oh, good. I was muted and I didn’t get to do my fun countdown.
[00:01:09] Jason Tucker: it’s been broken this whole. Yeah. I don’t know what’s going on, but the
[00:01:12] Sé Reed: Cosper is late and Steve’s in a meeting, but here’s the thing. We still have a lot to talk about because I had to, oh, there he is.
[00:01:21] Jason Tucker: Hey,
[00:01:21] Sé Reed: don’t.
[00:01:22] Jason Tucker: Cosper.
[00:01:25] Alain Schlesser: Hey,
[00:01:25] Jason Tucker: just missed this totally botch of a intro is awesome.
[00:01:29] Jason Cosper: Oh,
[00:01:29] Jason Tucker: it.
[00:01:30] Sé Reed: So look, it’s not you. Okay. It can happen without you too. I was just saying how we had to multiple times during the pre-show and I was late to the pre-show weird. And we still had multiple times where we had to stop ourselves from talking about this topic because we have so much to say all of us are like bursting.
[00:01:51] Sé Reed: But Cosper, we decided. People listening. Hello? Hello. We decided that our frame for today, cause we really think there’s a lot to talk about with themes, but our frame for today is really going to be Elaine’s tweets. And then also some of the tweet journey. the journey that the tweets took him on and I think it’s really just a great.
[00:02:15] Sé Reed: Really the initial tweet and then I’ll stop talking. I swear really, to me, the initial thread really spoke to me as someone who has been building WordPress themes since 2007 and some of the massive concerns that I have. So I, you really it’s one of those things where it’s. , it’s not just someone being critical, it’s someone who has a vested interest in the project and is, has concerns. And I think that’s just really different. So it did your concern resonated with me. And so I’m really excited to hear all of the above or below or whatever. . Do you wanna introduce yourself also first? Maybe
[00:02:56] Alain Schlesser: Yeah, sure. Hi everyone. I’m a lesser I’m a software engineer. I work with X WP. I maintain WP CLI the command line interface, WordPress and Kind
[00:03:10] Alain Schlesser: I’m also a Google developers expert for web technologies where I’m also very invested in the open web and performance and things like that.
[00:03:22] Jason Tucker: of a big deal.
[00:03:24] Sé Reed: Okay. Anyway I, I
[00:03:25] Jason Tucker: Very cool.
[00:03:26] Sé Reed: like receipt. You got ’em. All right. So I just, I wanna say that a lot of times people, if someone is being critical about anything, really on the internet, but also specifically within the WordPress project, people are like what do you know? And it’s I think it is important to be like I do know, actually that happens a lot.
[00:03:46] Sé Reed: I think in the more. Governance space, but I think it’s important to note it’s also happening in the development space. So more disclaimers from say So tell us about your tweet or do you wanna pop it up there?
[00:04:02] Jason Tucker: I can do that.
[00:04:03] Sé Reed: Yeah. Pop, pop it up. But do you wanna talk about what sparked this for you?
[00:04:08] Alain Schlesser: Yeah, so I was I was working on on a few blocks again to just deal with mark and how best to implement it. And by now the default for me was always to just skip. The Gutenberg rendering just have no safe call back and have PHP deal with all the rendering, because I want to have control over the markup.
[00:04:36] Alain Schlesser: I want to have the markup in a way that I can centrally make changes as needed. And for a lot of reasons, this is not only about during complete redesigns of your website or so it’s really, there are. Reasons why your markup needs to be updated consistently and and regularly because the web is living platform it is constantly evolving.
[00:05:03] Alain Schlesser: It’s constantly growing to be more accessible for everyone, more inclusive for everyone. And that means that the markup, the vocabulary that we all use to write webpages, to write web applications. We have more tools at our disposal to produce the best possible result for everyone. That’s why it’s so important that whatever we are publishing into the open web, that we can keep it up to date.
[00:05:30] Alain Schlesser: And according to these best practices, And I just, once more realized that we are really on a bad path right now, as far as I’m concerned, where we are hard coding, a lot of decisions where the decisions are already outdated, because people don’t read up enough about how best to do things. And then these outdated decisions, we now store them in the database.
[00:05:56] Sé Reed: So I, I wanna,
[00:05:57] Alain Schlesser: content.
[00:05:58] Sé Reed: in addition to the data, this is something that I feel I was tweeting the, our chat about earlier is that like I’m using spacer blocks the way that I used to use pixels. Like pixels to space things out. And I’m like, why am I doing this? This seems like I am literally regressing in just building a post.
[00:06:18] Sé Reed: Like I don’t, I do not understand why it is so com like how we’re not like, just adjusting that within each block or I, which leads into the whole what is CSS conversation, but for some reason what you’re saying about. this being outdated to me, it not only feels outdated. It feels archaic.
[00:06:38] Sé Reed: We’re bringing are we regressing? Does it feel like regression to you?
[00:06:42] Alain Schlesser: So I, I think right now that we actually have issues at four different levels with the entire approach to creating websites with WordPress just very briefly there’s fundamental issues. I, and I’ll go in, come into them right away. Then there’s issues of the current way it’s planned.
[00:07:06] Alain Schlesser: Then there are issues of the current implementation where it is not even according to plan, according to the intention. And then we have a lot of issues. To communication where whatever state we’re currently in, nobody knows where it’s supposed to be heading to. So these four different levels are problematic right now with Gutenberg and at the foundational level.
[00:07:28] Alain Schlesser: It’s just the
[00:07:35] Sé Reed: So did you mute, did I
[00:07:37] Jason Tucker: Oh, I think you got muted.
[00:07:39] Sé Reed: Elaine mute? Oh yeah, I
[00:07:40] Sé Reed: muted.
[00:07:42] Alain Schlesser: Sorry. Yep.
[00:07:43] Alain Schlesser: can you hear me again? Yeah. Okay. So the very principle of creating content in what is what you get way it’s problematic, because that means you’re creating the content as its singular visual representation. The entire concept is already problematic. And it’s, it is very core principle.
[00:08:05] Sé Reed: from a, from, especially from just basically like what you’re saying, an updating perspective, if you’re dealing with every tiny little. Didn’t we doesn’t CSS. Isn’t that the entire point of this entire like language worlds that exists? what I,
[00:08:22] Jason Tucker: the cascading of the cascading style sheet.
[00:08:25] Sé Reed: Like I thought we solved this problem so long ago.
[00:08:27] Sé Reed: Why are we remaking it?
[00:08:28] Alain Schlesser: So basically when you use what is what you get editing you are going from creating content to something like like using Adobe illustrator to draw the page. You’re just using a bit of different elements and maybe you have templates in between where you pull in data, but you are already hard coding.
[00:08:51] Alain Schlesser: A singular representation of your content while creating that content and that in itself it is the goal of the Gutenberg project. So I think that is not up to debate anymore, but that already leads to a lot of the problems down the road. Where if you ask me WordPress is changing its core audience.
[00:09:15] Alain Schlesser: So the way I always saw Mute it again,
[00:09:19] Jason Tucker: your audio went out again.
[00:09:25] Alain Schlesser: electronics seem to mess up here.
[00:09:27] Sé Reed: the way you always saw WordPress is where we lost
[00:09:29] Alain Schlesser: Yeah. So on a spectrum from single blogger to enterprise installations, WordPress was somewhat in the middle, but extensible towards both ends. The single blocker could install a page builder plugin, and just go at it while enterprise clients could be as rigid as they
[00:09:51] Sé Reed: is exactly why we have been able as a project. To get to such a dominant place on the internet, like with the 43%. That is really because it encompasses all of that and it,
[00:10:05] Alain Schlesser: wanted. And with Gutenberg. It even at a word
[00:10:07] Sé Reed: camp, you would blogger to the
[00:10:10] Sé Reed: hardcore but all
[00:10:11] Sé Reed: working in the project.
[00:10:14] Alain Schlesser: Yes, exactly. And what we, what is happening now with Gutenberg is that while this page Boulder is not optional anymore, so we’re moving more towards the personal blogger for enterprise clients everything becomes more complex and more expensive, which will make WordPress a non option
[00:10:33] Alain Schlesser: for a lot of projects where before it was perfectly.
[00:10:36] Alain Schlesser: And I’m fearing right now that, because of that
[00:10:40] Alain Schlesser: decision, we focus solely on the people that use WordPress, but we lose the people that actually fund WordPress
[00:10:47] Alain Schlesser: more and more, Because money comes in via D’s big enterprise clients that, that don’t necessarily block about how they love WordPress, but they fund
[00:10:58] Alain Schlesser: a, a large part of it.
[00:11:00] Sé Reed: They fund a lot of the who are the core contributors to all sorts of the
[00:11:04] Sé Reed: like just like the parts that really funded. Other blood, sweat, and tears of total volunteers who just do it for the love or people who are sponsored volunteers who have become a huge part of WordPresses.
[00:11:20] Sé Reed: Functionality as a project.
[00:11:22] Sé Reed: Cuz the power is always that it could be that if you needed it to be that, but it could also be all of these other things. And. Really you could change experiences within the same interface. That’s really how I’ve been using WordPress, especially lately, is that with changing user roles and capabilities, you can sculpt an entire experience for it’s based, it’s baked in a contributor or an editor, like.
[00:12:56] Sé Reed: That, that part and those level of roles that are unlimited, that you can use are very valuable. And if it’s all going to user, because you’re building your own, that’s not even how a good portion of people build their data, like build their sites like but anyway, I also wanted to stress.
[00:13:14] Sé Reed: I think there’s a really big difference between and maybe there is less of a difference database wise and just more of a difference on the front. User end between Gutenberg, which is to me, the ability to put columns and some images the way you want it in a post versus full site editing, which is like just this wild restructuring of everything into wizzywig that I want to in a future show topic, we’re gonna do a couple shows about themes.
[00:13:47] Sé Reed: Talk about that. What are people even using these pages for?
[00:13:51] Sé Reed: I think that’s the real difference because what people wanted from the editor from the post editor was just the ability to make some columns and put the images next to each other, or maybe do something a little bit different with that pull quote or whatever cuz the theme they had didn’t style it at all or whatever, but that has now translated into full sight editing.
[00:14:11] Sé Reed: And I think
[00:14:12] Sé Reed: to know. I think I know Gutenberg then with the blocks within the post. Do change, what is saved in the actual database, so that is now has its own gut markup block markup. What is that? Does that have an actual term for the, is it Gutenberg? Markup?
[00:14:30] Alain Schlesser: it’s just HTML. That’s stored,
[00:14:32] Sé Reed: Okay. I know, but it doesn’t have like its own special name for it or something.
[00:14:37] Jason Tucker: to be hidden. You’re
[00:14:37] Jason Tucker: supposed to never see it
[00:14:39] Sé Reed: Okay. So
[00:14:40] Jason Tucker: and then paste it.
[00:14:40] Sé Reed: yeah. So so I don’t know a lot about. The data, like my always my point has always been, you can use page builders on pages and then posts are basically just text because you want the posts to be archivable for forever long.
[00:14:56] Sé Reed: And the pages are gonna change as the needs change of the, about page, all those pages change. So the structure there is less important as, and the arch
[00:15:05] Sé Reed: That is less important than the posts. I think that to me is really a difference in use that has been completely obliterated. Now we’re treating the entire site.
[00:15:16] Sé Reed: Like it’s just all, we wanna put columns
[00:15:19] Sé Reed: in the header and the whatever, And that part of
[00:15:22] Sé Reed: the, the, the
[00:15:23] Sé Reed: site has not didn’t
[00:15:25] Sé Reed: need that. like, it’s like nobody remembers dream Weaver.
[00:15:30] Sé Reed: I remember dreaming, this is a problem or the Adobe thing man front page.
[00:15:36] Sé Reed: Oh, my God, like what’s this is why I feel like we’re is it just, for me? It feels like developers are making decisions that look like developer decisions. And they’re trying to make the full site editor look like a front page inside the editor.
[00:15:51] Sé Reed: Basically. I don’t really understand what’s happening there because users can’t use it. And developers are like, what are we doing here? Why am I in this part of the site at all?
[00:16:02] Jason Tucker: Cosper. It’s funny you say that because the jokingly us being a bit older we’re talking about the fact that that oh, does no one remember this? Maybe they
[00:16:13] Sé Reed: Maybe they don’t, maybe
[00:16:15] Jason Cosper: Yeah,
[00:16:16] Jason Tucker: They’re not learning from the history of if we end up with some dot files that are for like locking image, locking texts and, or locking files and stuff we’re in trouble.
[00:16:26] Jason Tucker: Like
[00:16:26] Sé Reed: is why I’m feeling like the space where I’m telling you like some way why we got rid of the pixel.
[00:16:32] Jason Cosper: it’s, it’s the, it’s the classic, uh, quote of those who don’t learn history or doomed to repeat it. And here we
[00:16:40] Sé Reed: Yeah. But nobody teaches web history.
[00:16:44] Jason Tucker: They
[00:16:44] Sé Reed: Is that a thing? I don’t even know. I’m gonna look into that after this. Okay. But I also have some questions for Elaine. Because a lot of what you were talking about. And I think what you were saying to us that you do professionally is moving data around to for better or for worse, moving it from WordPress, getting it out of something, getting it, putting it into something else.
[00:17:04] Sé Reed: Like really, because data is the valuable thing in the website, it’s not the structure that data takes and that’s really been WordPress. Thing, that’s what I’ve always sold it as I was like, you will be able to keep your stuff as opposed to square space or whatever, where you can’t keep your stuff in the same way.
[00:17:26] Sé Reed: And so can you speak to that? In terms of like how you, what you feel, the data that is in the site at all is now what’s happening to it.
[00:17:37] Alain Schlesser: Yeah, sure. One big theme for WordPress was always and this is directly tied to the self hosting part is the ownership of your own data that that you own the data that you are producing, that you’re publishing. That was always a big theme. And now, while technically you still own the data that you’re producing in Gooden.
[00:18:01] Alain Schlesser: We currently producing data that is useless outside of Gutenberg. So if you extract that data and want to use it someplace else at best you get the static markup that might work as an HTML fragment, but it has already all of these assumptions about the frame in which it will be presented.
[00:18:48] Alain Schlesser: And so the more we encode these assumptions into the content and store it in the database, the less we actually own that content, we just own past representation of it. It’s for future work.
[00:19:01] Jason Tucker: You know what? We had this problem. We had this problem with with flash where we had all these, we had all this stuff stuffed inside flash. And in one of your tweets you wrote here the fact that at some point we’re gonna have to render this stuff in HTML six. I. I totally understand that because at some point we’re going to have to, or maybe we won’t, maybe we no one cares and it just, oh yeah.
[00:19:25] Jason Tucker: This book that I’m holding is no longer compatible with my eyes. I cannot read it anymore. It’s like that sort of thing. So it’s
[00:19:33] Sé Reed: This hurts me so much from a former bookstore owner, but also someone whose literal whole point has always been data. Just the preservation of the data you create and the effort that you put into that business owners and marketers and all of this so much of the stuff we create and put out there is just ephemeral and gone.
[00:19:51] Sé Reed: And that’s always been myself for websites. What you’re creating is yours. It’s on your site. You can move it. It will be with you as long as you need it there as if you were making a book, right? Doesn’t matter if this host goes down, you can move to another one. You’re clean. You’re good.
[00:20:07] Sé Reed: It doesn’t matter if this person stops developing this theme, doesn’t matter. You can just switch. And that is like everything to me. That’s like the whole point. So if we’re really losing that are we gonna be able to convert out? Is there a I feel like we could just build a D Gutenberg Geer that would strip the tags or are we just really, is it endless?
[00:20:31] Sé Reed: It’s doomed. Once you go in there it’s lost in terms of like cleanness
[00:20:34] Alain Schlesser: After publishing these threats, I had video chat with Matt V who is the lead architect for the Gutenberg project. And that discussion was very valuable. and it was it was mostly, we discussed all these topics that I mentioned in your threat, but then I realized after some of these discussions, there’s currently a misunderstanding of what Gutenberg does based on the naming.
[00:21:05] Alain Schlesser: And this naming seems to be for historical purposes. So if you look at a Gutenberg block, it has an added and a safe method, and everyone is complaining about the safe method. It stores the HTML in the database, and then you get validation errors if you change it and so on. And and people are using dynamic rendering for blocks as a workaround.
[00:21:26] Alain Schlesser: And it feels somewhat weird to do that. And not as you should do, but after talking to materials, I realized he mentioned that the safe method, it is actually the static fallback of rendering the content. And right now, most of the blocks are supposed to do a dynamic render. With the safe method, creating the static fallback in case someone tries to circumvent a Gutenberg rendering to still get useful content.
[00:21:57] Sé Reed: Ways saved separately then? So there’s a Mar in the database, there’s a a field basically with the markup and without it.
[00:22:06] Alain Schlesser: No. The dynamic portion it’s never saved. It is basically you have a template in PHP and whenever the blog is supposed to be shown it will do a call back to the PHP server and the PHP server will return the rendered markup, but then you have control again where you can adapt that markup over time.
[00:22:24] Alain Schlesser: And that doesn’t mean outside of WordPress. That is it’s just inside of WordPress. You can have clean data then, but
[00:22:32] Sé Reed: not
[00:22:33] Alain Schlesser: but that was always the case. That was always the case. The data model of WordPress was always messed up. The database itself is useless without WordPress, if you don’t pass the data through all the plugins first. So it was always messed up.
[00:22:45] Sé Reed: that’s true.
[00:22:47] Alain Schlesser: Yeah. But the issue we are having now,
[00:22:49] Sé Reed: I railed about this, I think sometime in 2007, maybe 2000, whenever 2000, it was on the show. So 2013, maybe about the data structure, it’s been a while
[00:23:01] Alain Schlesser: yeah.
[00:23:01] Sé Reed: it’s been a problem.
[00:23:02] Alain Schlesser: The the issue that, that a lot of people are facing is that with this static fallback, that they try to keep it in check with whatever they’re rendering as the actual markup. And then they get validation issues. Every time they change that markup even in minor ways. And on one hand, this markup could actually be simplified as it relates to the PHP dynamic version, it could just be a very basic HTML.
[00:23:30] Alain Schlesser: And on the other hand, right now, the validation is set to its strictest mode because Gutenberg is still trying to figure out all the edge cases, it’s.
[00:23:40] Alain Schlesser: validation. Can be dialed down so that most of the time when there are validation issues, it will just figure out a conversion to just update it.
[00:23:49] Alain Schlesser: And then it’s good. So that is something that I think most developers are not aware of. And we all feel dirty when we go to PHP to render the Gutenberg Java script blocks. But actually that seems to be the proper way to do it based on what I gathered from discussion with materials, because that’s the only way to create blocks that you can properly.
[00:24:09] Sé Reed: So do you feel like this is. Is an evolution of what we had before or just restructuring so this is ties into why I felt like we should name the, this topic, right? The theme is dead long. Live the theme.
[00:24:22] Alain Schlesser: Yeah.
[00:24:23] Sé Reed: that. I talk about this because one basically it’s like the old way of themeing really is dead.
[00:24:28] Sé Reed: Like it’s dead, right. Dead.
[00:24:30] Alain Schlesser: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:24:31] Sé Reed: And then, but long lived the theme. Woo. We’re still the theme. What? We’re like the same name. We’re just gonna call it. The same thing was completely D. Totally different structure, but here it is
[00:24:43] Alain Schlesser: I think with the full side editing, we can actually have all the parts be still dynamic. So then in the end, They fall back to contemplating on the PHP side. So that is actually a valid way of doing it. But what we are seeing right now is is that the entire. The workflow that you’re supposed to use with Gutenberg that is not clear, that’s never communicated.
[00:25:32] Alain Schlesser: That’s the good thing. The bad thing is it means Gutenberg is even less ready for production work than I assumed because there’s fundamental pieces missing for making it work. For example, the proper validation mechanisms and things like that. It.
[00:25:51] Jason Tucker: So we went from storing stuff in post MEA to now storing stuff in the content of the post, in the form of a A comment. Is that kind of the way this is the way that I’ve been looking at this and that is that because of the fact that we just want to copy and paste is that what it is that we wanna just be able to highlight a block, copy it, and then go to another place anywhere, literally anywhere on the internet says Matt and then paste it in there.
[00:26:22] Jason Tucker: So at some point I should be able to copy some texts that’s on my WordPress website, go over to Tumblr and then just paste it into Tumblr and it should render.
[00:26:32] Sé Reed: right. It should render as Gutenberg because Tumblr has Guten.
[00:26:36] Jason Tucker: Gutenberg, everything. It’s all about Gutenberg. Isn’t it.
[00:26:39] Alain Schlesser: What you have in your post content, it’s a combination of. HTML comments with attributes that are actually the data and a static fallback that has been rendered of the current representation of that data. So that when you try to render the post content, you get the static fallback, HTML content that’s being rendered, and the comments are being ignored.
[00:27:04] Alain Schlesser: But the important part are the comments.
[00:27:06] Jason Tucker: So Tumblr and another WordPress website entirely then copy and pasting too. It would fall back to here’s some text that’s inside of this comment block, and now do what you wanna do with it. Maybe we’ll try to trans trans transfer it to another block type or something else.
[00:27:26] Jason Tucker: That’s where it comes down to, is at least you copied over the.
[00:27:30] Alain Schlesser: Yes. And for the validation issues, for example there’s plans of looking into that when the static fallback mock up and the HDML comment with the attributes, when they don’t match up, there’s a few scenarios. One scenario is that. The block is not known in the HTML comment, but based on the markup, Gutenberg will try to reconstruct it.
[00:27:53] Alain Schlesser: And it might be a different block that produces the same markup. So for example, it could go from WP image to Tumblr image by figuring out that the markup is actually the same. Be mapped.
[00:28:09] Sé Reed: Like pre mapped data transference.
[00:28:12] Alain Schlesser: According to materials, the approach of trying to figure it out of how to decouple the content from the representation is not about creating them in separate ways, but about having smart ways of being able to map from one representation to the other, without losing the content.
[00:28:31] Jason Tucker: Wow.
[00:28:32] Sé Reed: All I know from this is that my next bet from, for the WP acquisition is WP all import.
[00:28:40] Jason Tucker: Oh, all
[00:28:41] Sé Reed: Oh, you heard it here. First. Heard it here first. Thank you very much, so much buy it, but only some people that I like please dream house. Can you get on that? So, so I, yep. So we are at the 30 minute mark, I wanna say thank you very much for all of you for hanging out with us today. Again, like we were saying, this is definitely going to be a series that we’re gonna be doing, cuz there’s no way
[00:29:01] Sé Reed: got more to talk about.
[00:29:03] Jason Tucker: and yeah.
[00:29:03] Sé Reed: you so much for coming on here and talking about your tweets, because what you said was let’s talk, what, like, why aren’t we talking about this? And it’s let’s talk about this because if there is an answer, we all need to know it. And if there isn’t an answer, like we all need to know it, but if there isn’t answer and we don’t know that, then we’re.
[00:29:24] Sé Reed: Freaking out and people are leaving for no reason. So we need to solve that communication fork of the thing you talked about, because there’s a big disconnect and I think that’s even causing more problems than the code switching. That’s the problem. So we let’s work on that. Everyone
[00:29:41] Sé Reed: DM, DMA, and we’ll come on the show and talk about stuff.
[00:29:44] Jason Tucker: Definitely. Thank you very much.
[00:29:46] Sé Reed: Thank you so much.
[00:29:48] Jason Tucker: bye-bye. Thank you for hanging out with us today. Go over to debut water core.com/subscribe to subscribe to this content and all the other content that we put out here, including dev branch. And you can also find us on apple podcast, Google podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, and you can watch us over on YouTube
[00:30:07] Sé Reed: Yeah, tweet also those tweet us, tell us what you think. Like we wanna have this conversation, so have it.