EP364 – Is WordPress Really Easy to use
Jason Tucker 0:08
Hey, what’s up everyone? This is Jason Tucker and this is WP water cooler. Episode Number 364. Is WordPress really easy to use? Question mark? This episode is brought to you by ServerPress makers DesktopServer check them out over at serverpress.com
Jason Tucker, you can find me over at Jason Tucker on Twitter. My website is Jason Tucker.blog
Steve Zehngut 0:27
I’m Steve Zehngut. I’m the founder of Zeek interactive and I run the OC WordPress meetup.
Sé Reed 0:32
I’m Se Reed and I make WordPress, teach WordPress and preach WordPress at SeReedMedia.com
on all the thing
Russell Aaron 0:38
My name is Russell Aaron, I do things with WordPress in Las Vegas.
Jason Cosper 0:42
It’s Jason Cosper, aka Fat Mullenweg
Jason Tucker 0:48
go support us on Patreon go to patreon.com slash WPwatercooler.
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Sé Reed 1:09
If you’re watching us on Facebook, what are you doing?
Jason Cosper 1:17
shared if you shared this on Facebook and your mom is watching sup mom
Steve Zehngut 1:25
see how the mother for me
Jason Tucker 1:33
wants to set us up on this. This this topic that we’re we’re about to jump into and most likely steal from from a friend of ours.
Jason Cosper 1:50
The one who suggested that actually
Sé Reed 1:53
I don’t know what I’m talking about surprise
Steve Zehngut 1:58
under the bus we
Russell Aaron 2:00
we all we all suggest a lot of topics but I want to say you know i this is something that’s near and dear to my heart man which is which is something that you know a lot of times the message has always been that WordPress is easy and especially when it comes to advertising and marketing and I understand that getting people into WordPress the message needs to be that it’s easy but you know our my good friend Matt said WordPress isn’t easy there I said it you know, and and this is a big tip. Yeah, not Mullenweg. So, this this is a really this is a really good topic to talk about because you know, WordPress in itself, there’s a lot of caveats to get over. There’s a lot of things that I think you need to know even if you’re just a pizza shop person having a website, you should know a couple of things. And this is a very sensitive topic for me alone, you know, but So Matt shared this over here, and this is actually a comment from somebody on his blog, who was saying
You know, I was doing something with Squarespace I was dragging and dropping on the blocks. You know, he didn’t say but you know, Joe Rogan probably suggested he go over there. And he was just saying that he went on with Bluehost. And he was building this WordPress site and it, he found himself in a hole. And you know, now his site still isn’t built. He doesn’t know what’s going on. And you know, he doesn’t have the money to do this WordPress thing. But he was sold on the idea that it was really easy and and this is a whole different take on, you know, just arguing. It’s really easy to install a plugin. Look, you click and do this. Like there’s there’s things that keep Steve and Cosper myself in business. And these are one of those things, man. Well, yeah, and I will point out something that’s interesting here is, this is a comment from Jeff this last week on Matt’s blog, that posts that the posts that the comment is on is from 2016. So this is four years later.
Jason Cosper 4:00
With the addition of the block editor
is ready but in four years things have not gotten any easier. Yeah, I saw by the way I just want to save that screenshot it was two ladies want to start at what company is what I read? Because I always thought really briefly when you flashed it up there okay anyway um yeah I went out one thing sorry I know you were talking and I was joking everything did you want to finally finish the point? I’m trying to be more polite.
Just Just in the last four years not a lots changed even though we’ve had the block editor even though you know all the other things are being added to WordPress like on a fairly decent clip. Things haven’t gotten easier. So I want to point something out about that comment. He did not actually say he was sold because he thought it would be easier, he said
Sé Reed 5:00
He would be getting more versatility for the same amount of money. And that’s actually true. And so what he was sold on is not a misnomer. It’s just that it didn’t come with the caveat. Oh, and it might be a, there might be a bit of a learning curve. Because that’s really what it’s about. It’s not so much that it’s not easy. It’s just that it’s different than Squarespace. So if you’re going in there expecting the website to act like Squarespace. It’s not going to be easy, because it doesn’t act like Squarespace. I mean, that’s the like, right? Like if you’re coming from Squarespace and going to WordPress, it’s not the same thing. So and I mean, that’s the other thing you said on there. My brain doesn’t work this way. But like, how is he you know what I mean? Like he, he’s, his brain is trained by Squarespace and having been in Squarespace to work like Squarespace. So that’s like if you were to switch from an iPhone to an Android, and you’re like, oh, the buttons aren’t in the same spot and I have to swipe down instead of up and it’s like, right, well, it’s a different system.
So you have to retrain yourself a little bit. There’s a slight learning curve, it doesn’t mean that iPhones actually easier than an android or anything like that. It just means that they’re different. And so I think, I think that’s the the main issue. Whether or not WordPress is easy is kind of its own thing. But if you’re someone transferring from between platforms, whatever they are, that is really going to be the main problem. And people people don’t realize that the average person who switch from one phone to the other I mean, if they switch from one, Facebook layout to the other, you know,
the new Facebook layout, or the new the new Google share buttons on Google Docs, I’ve literally had people tell me Oh, I’m sorry. I struggled to share this. I couldn’t figure out the new share buttons
like that. They just they just made it a different shape. Like it’s just not a box anymore. It’s just two boxes now. But yeah, but but you know that but they don’t know that. I think that’s kind of the point that when I read this
Russell Aaron 7:00
Was that like, you know the the people like us that know WordPress in and out it is easy and you know that is basically our message but it’s because we look at this every day and I think it’s really hard whether you are changing from iPhone or going to WordPress from Squarespace. It’s really hard but this idea that like, you can just set this up in minutes that whole mentality I think just needs to kind of go away and the message needs to be you need to understand a little bit about what you’re doing if you’re going to get into this game. You know, you don’t just go buy cryptocurrency and hope nothing happens. You could lose a lot of money if you don’t store it properly. There’s there’s a lot of things. I love how you brought that back to crypto.
It’s the way of the future man.
Steve Zehngut 7:44
We’re talking about a couple different things though, right? Yes, you got to define what easy is right. We’ve talked about using WordPress. We talked about
Jason Tucker 7:51
easy like Sunday morning, Steve. That’s what it is
Steve Zehngut 7:54
talks about like Sunday morning. We’ve talked about using WordPress in the block.
We’ve talked about stalling. We talked about installing WordPress, right? I argue that neither of those things are are easy.
Sé Reed 8:08
Let’s be real, his real problem with going to Bluehost
Steve Zehngut 8:15
Bluehost. Choosing a host isn’t easy if you’ve never done that before.
Sé Reed 8:20
Right? And with Squarespace you don’t have to choose anything, you just you choose the amount you want to pay. And that’s different than the hosting thing. I would say if you’re looking for easy and more more, you know, out of the box stuff that equivalent to Squarespace is actually wordpress.com not WordPress, the software or the various platforms, but again, I mean, we could caveat this whole conversation with but people don’t know that.
Steve Zehngut 8:46
Well, and that’s, that’s really, you brought up a good point. That’s the apples to apples comparison. If you’re comparing Squarespace or Wix to wordpress.org then it’s a whole different that’s a whole football wax. Yeah, but you will get more versatility for yourself.
Sé Reed 9:00
using WordPress, then using Squarespace like that is very much true, you will be able to expand your options you will be able to integrate with more things hack, you’ll be able to have better zaps. If you’re trying to zap stuff around, like you’ll be able to integrate with MailChimp better. You know, so in terms of the functionality of your website, it is absolutely easier in terms of setting up a page.
It I guess it really depends on what you’re trying to do. The main difference is right, Squarespace gives you a layout, and then you just fill in the blanks. And by default, WordPress does not do that.
Jason Cosper 9:39
Okay, so something that I think we need to step back and look at is that WordPress is software that was made for developers, by developers and determined end users can pick it up and actually do pretty big, great things with it. But Squarespace Wix things like that that software is made for end users WordPress, in the in adding the block editor and making all these improvements in Gutenberg and having basically ending their entire theme system to make the block editor become a theme system replacement. They’re moving towards being more for end users and they have been in the past. But up until this point, this honestly it has been software that is buying for developers.
Sé Reed 10:34
So I would actually caveat that to say that the setup of the website has been for developers because the point of WordPress has always been that anyone could use it to publish stuff, Post published, you know, make make blog posts, all of that stuff. So there are two with Squarespace. The idea is that you’re both setting up the site and using the site It is like an all in one. You don’t have to do any of the development. Kind of So there’s no set, right? It’s just here it is. And now you’re just filling in content. The difference, that’s the main difference, you’re not given a prefilled. website with with WordPress, you can actually get one now, and we’ve talked about that on previous things. But that’s the real difference. Because people can use WordPress really easily. There’s all sorts of institutions and organizations, that the person who’s using the site to put content on it is nowhere not having anything to do with the setup of the site or the running or the management of the site. And they love it. Because they’re just filling in a post doing the thing and it just shows up and it does its thing and it’s not crazy weird. And and so in that sense, it is built for an end user. I isn’t I’ve worked with there.
Russell Aaron 11:50
I’ve worked with people that literally don’t know the technical term, but they’re like, I don’t have this custom field to do this. Like they can’t code it themselves, but like the people that were worked with were able to say we need this metadata or we need this taxonomy over here. Like they knew they were learning what they were doing. But you know, they had a vested interest in keeping this website going, they’re a bigger company. And I think that’s a lot different than the person who works for a mortgage company that’s doing a one little post every day about whether you should lower your credit score something that’s a lot different. But the results the same Yeah, you’re using WordPress, the daily driving of WordPress is really easy. You know, but but even trying to even try and tell people that, Hey, you got to update your plugins that’s big and scary for people. And that takes the easy out of it. You know, like, all of a sudden, there’s this new thing and, and I think that’s what kind of scares people is, oh, there’s this other thing. Oh, there’s this other thing. And it’s like, when does it stop? You know, and like, that’s kind of what the Squarespace like Phil’s is like, Hey, you cross my palm. 20 bucks, and it’s done. You know what I mean? So
Unknown Speaker 12:58
this is why When
Russell Aaron 13:01
you click a button and bam there is it’s integrated with you know, stripe, you click a button and it’s integrated with MailChimp you cross your palm with 20 bucks and they’ll integrate it for
Sé Reed 13:10
you. So why are this weird expression?
Russell Aaron 13:14
I mean, you, you you you hand them money and they will do it for you. I mean, it’s Yeah, either way you say like, like, I don’t like the argument that you can integrate to MailChimp better because I think MailChimp, whether it’s on Squarespace, or it’s on WordPress, they want you to integrate with their full capable fields that you can i don’t think that integrates any better I think you get to dictate how it integrates better, but it’s not that your use better code or better software
Sé Reed 13:43
specifically MailChimp does not integrate well with Squarespace. I literally coming off of a client belt where there had a sale site and trying to get anything into MailChimp is actually not easy. It’s it’s a little more complicated than that, but that is because that’s a third party with that. Third party and if they have, or two parties, and if they have a disagreement, which they have many like with who owns the, you know, different data and whatnot, then they can take away those features all together because they’re not third, third parties, essentially, they’re not a disinterested party. So there can be issues with that most of the time.
Russell Aaron 14:19
But then if MailChimp doesn’t work that out, if MailChimp isn’t making enough money, they’re gonna just take that freemium stuff out of their plugin and make MailChimp Pro. I mean, you can make that argument too.
Jason Tucker 14:30
But then there’s things like caching,
Unknown Speaker 14:31
they do have that.
Jason Tucker 14:32
But then there’s things like caching, there’s things like plugin maintenance, there’s
Unknown Speaker 14:36
Russell Aaron 14:41
you don’t have to do. It’s worse. And like Cosper was saying, It’s been four years and we’re, it’s still this kind of this conversation
Jason Cosper 14:51
being determined, and here’s the switch. Worrying. You have to be willing to keep learning to use WordPress to keep figuring out what needs to happen, oh, I want to add this piece of functionality to my state. Well, I have to learn what plugins are out there. I have to learn how to use the plugin once it’s installed. Like it’s it’s determined to end users, it’s people who have to always be ready and willing to learn for a couple buttons. Not so much.
Russell Aaron 15:27
That’s always the hardest part is I
Sé Reed 15:30
want to make a differentiation between site management and site use. We talked about this, I talked about this briefly. But these this is why these are two different things. So if you’re a one stop shop, and a single solopreneur person doing it, then you are both site manager, and site user. And those are in theory, different roles, but you’re also then a marketer, and a social media manager, and a sales clerk and all of these other things which is incidentally why writing your Business is freaking difficult because you have to wear all these hats and you have to be, quote unquote good at all of these things, right? Like, it’s the same thing for Instagram. Like you still have to learn how to figure out how to do freakin Instagram stories. They don’t publish a how to do anything on it like they’re add a new feature and you find out because you see it on someone else’s site and then you have to go figure out how to do it, you know, so, I would argue that the real problem here is the individual who’s literally trying to fulfill the role of what are full jobs full full time jobs for multiple people and expecting that to be easy. Like that’s really the problem here. So Squarespace and and the like Wix and all of that they’re actually just, they’re doing the site management and building for you. In so doing, you get the freedom of not having to worry about that part, which can be really good for people. However you also are giving you are also getting not a custom solution. So you’re Getting the monolith, and you have to write tickets to get support. And you may or may not actually get to be able to have certain customization if you want to change templates. You have problems, right? So it’s just a trade off. It’s the same. It’s the same thing. As you know, what? What, what parts of your work and what parts of your business? Do you want to shop out to someone? Or what parts do you want to do yourself like web development is a difficult thing in general, like look it up. There’s, you know, when how many of us are there are five of us on here? I think you have to be able to count to five to be a web developer. That’s
Steve Zehngut 17:42
for up to four.
Sé Reed 17:44
Yeah. So I’m here to know that you
Jason Cosper 17:50
you have people who work for you, so it’s okay.
Sé Reed 17:53
Unknown Speaker 17:55
No, I said Steve, I’m just talking about counter
Unknown Speaker 17:58
counter for ya.
Russell Aaron 18:00
Yeah, but what I like about Steve is like, like Steve knows WordPress, and he knows that the parts of his business, yes, he has people doing development, but Steve jump in there and have those conversations. And I think that’s my point is that if you own something, if you put a credit card toward something, you should have a vested interest in knowing a little bit about how this thing works. And whether that’s, you know, GoDaddy is the word or you know, that post types are a thing, you should know something and it always impresses me when I show up to a place that they they don’t know what they have in their website, but the owner says, I know that I have backups and I know they have this and they’re able to tell me that that’s at least a good sign that that there are people that are trying to get the message out that there there’s some some work into it, but you know, if you’re putting money towards something, you should at least know how it works. WordPress is very
Jason Tucker 18:49
DIY, like WordPress, no matter how you look at it, very DIY, and it’s not just very DIY, it’s it’s the point where you have multiple vendors that you’re going to be Working with in order to make the final product happen where if you go to Squarespace, it’s the one vendor. And that’s it. Like when you go Yeah, the one screen the one vendor, the one, the the one, you know, thing that you have to pay for. And that’s it, where with WordPress, you could literally spend anywhere from like $20 for one plugin to $600 for all the plugins that you need to be able to make, you know, the entire stack work, and come to find out that one of them breaks and it’s not your web hosting company that’s going to fix it. It’s going to have to be the company that you bought that one plugin from to get it resolved.
Sé Reed 19:37
But if you’re doing that versatility, it means that you’re doing it you should be doing it for a reason, right? Like that’s you shouldn’t just be building six $600 scaffold have plugins be for fun, right? You those should be integral parts of your business and like Russ was saying you need to know what those are doing. And you would source those out from different vendors. You know, if you’re building a simple site You don’t need to expand and extend what you’re doing then maybe that isn’t the right spot for you. I would say actually you could just go to WordPress calm and you’d be totally fine and add on you know buttons as you go and you can actually grow on WordPress comm from the basic all the way up to then being a more elaborate site at the top tier level so I would say that actually you could still use WordPress but you would need to use WordPress COMM And not just WordPress the entity from Bluehost but don’t use Bluehost anyway sorry guys don’t use it maybe
Jason Tucker 20:37
hashtag not sponsored
Sé Reed 20:42
I don’t know I guess
Unknown Speaker 20:45
Russell Aaron 20:47
being funny. So cheap. Yeah, I was
Jason Tucker 20:53
looking at WordPress I always compare WordPress to a brick and mortar business and if you look at the brick and mortar business side of it, do you need to be plumber to run to run your business? No, you go and hire a plumber to go and fix the plumbing that’s messed up. Yeah. Do you have to be an electrician or to run a business? No, you hire an electrician and build it. It’s the same thing. All those things are different components that make the business itself happen. Those are those would be akin to the plugins that would be there and the various people that need to, you know, interact with them steal their mind. I know I hear
Russell Aaron 21:26
a brewing dude
Sé Reed 21:29
does have managed hosting now. I just wanted to tell you that Okay, go ahead. I’m clear that clear the way he’s
Unknown Speaker 21:36
coming. The hands are the worst part. That’s that’s bad. It’s good stuff to say. You know, there’s
Steve Zehngut 21:47
there’s no, no, not at all. I think there’s so many different segments of customers, right? We’re talking about, we’re talking about a very particular segment of customers. That is ease going to use it DIY solution right? There. The customers that I deal with don’t know what what they have, they don’t know what they’ve bought, they don’t know what components are there, all they care about is that it works. But that’s why they hire an agency, right? Or a freelancer or somebody else. Right. And so, I think we’re talking about is, is I think that the blog post was specifically targeted at somebody who was doing this on the cheap, right? I hate i’m not i’m not insulting anybody, but it’s it’s people who are trying to do this, because it’s WordPress, because WordPress is advertised as free or near free, right? You know, if you go to a meetup, you’ll learn that WordPress is free to get the software and you have a couple plugins, maybe the premium plugins, they’re only a couple hundred bucks, you’re all set, you’ve got a website. That by itself is the wrong message. That’s just not true. It doesn’t work like that. And we and I can’t count the number of times we’ve said exactly that on this on this podcast over over the over how many years right so yeah, That That by itself is not a never be true. It will never be true. And it’s not just it’s not just WordPress, that’s true of any software, any any DIY software like like WordPress, right, yeah,
Sé Reed 23:12
if you’re trying to cut corners, you’re gonna, you’re gonna end up if you’re trying to wire your own electricity, you might get electrocuted. And
Steve Zehngut 23:19
I argue that it’s not even true about Squarespace or Wix. Right? Because people that just don’t know what they’re doing to turn on a Squarespace site may make a mistake. Yes, so it’s not true as chairman, those those solutions,
Sé Reed 23:35
they just have been so because they have a pretty layout. They think it’s a good website. That’s really the because people still cannot differentiate between web design and web development and the functionality and the way that the picture looks. They’re like, Oh, that’s pretty picture.
Steve Zehngut 23:50
It always comes back to it always comes back to your goals, right? What are your goals? What are you trying to achieve? Right?
Sé Reed 23:56
And so So, the client, I have to tell you right now that I’ve been Trying to get them to explain that part to me. And then I just put it up and I’ll fiddle with it. I was like, No, but what are you trying to do? I just put it up and I’ll make it get to there. And I’m like, I can’t help you. I said, Do
Russell Aaron 24:13
I just put it up and I send those people a bill and then they’re like,
Sé Reed 24:15
what my billing
Russell Aaron 24:17
and then they’re like, what happened? I’m like, I don’t know, but I can put it back up again. Here’s another 40 bucks, you know, like, like, they’re in control. You know what I mean?
Steve Zehngut 24:27
I’ve got one more point, but Cosper had something to say.
Jason Cosper 24:30
Oh, no, I was gonna say that. I’ve seen a lot of amped up Squarespace sites to like very, very, very determined people who just have an idea in their head and want to get it out. But maybe don’t have the expertise, the design sensibility, whatever to do it. You know, I’ve seen some royally after Squarespace sites. So it’s not just WordPress. I couldn’t,
Russell Aaron 25:01
I couldn’t care less about design anymore. Like I’ve seen some. I’ve seen some blog there do like one of my, one of my friends, he’s a top Vegas blogger here, and he’s running the 2012 theme, with just that header up there full post, getting millions of hits to a site, and it’s just killing every day. Yeah, it doesn’t care. So I really don’t care about the design, I really don’t care about the functionality of it too much as long as it’s doing what it needs to do. You know, people, people care that Well, well, well, I care for them. That’s part of support. And that’s part of what I do. But But my point here is that there’s more important parts that I think you need to know other than the logos 350. So I get rid of the things that really don’t matter. And I would rather you take five minutes and just learn this thing that kind of matters to your business. I think that’s been my message here.
Steve Zehngut 25:54
I think I think everybody’s gonna have some different goals, but most people’s goals include being found on Google, right? Or I want my business found I want somebody to contact me. Right. And so I need I need to get the word out. That’s, that’s in most people’s goals. Right? Yeah, that that particular thing is, is the first thing that you can screw up right by by not understanding what you’re doing.
Sé Reed 26:17
And by using a Squarespace site, because is, is 100% geared to not having text on the page, and all of their pretty designs are terrible for SEO. Absolutely. And so in that case, design actually doesn’t matter, right for
Steve Zehngut 26:32
Google doesn’t care about your design. Right? As a matter of fact, they’ll penalize you for it. Right? So they just they just changed their algorithm last month to include largest contentful paint. So any any site with a hero image at the top, got a 25 point ding on there, and they’re just as happy with it. It just happened at the end of May they snuck it in. Go, go run your he scores and you’re and you’re gonna see most of your sites. Just dipped about 20 to 25 points for
Sé Reed 27:04
Russell Aaron 27:05
Literally having a suffer literally having a slider on your home page or even on your services page.
Steve Zehngut 27:11
Oh, that Oh, that algorithm change was the slider change it was it was clearly
Russell Aaron 27:15
it needed to come out is what needs to happen. I’m so tired of sliders they Oh dude, like the thing that usually support comes up is like we have this thing. And it’s usually some stupid revolution slider thing that I can’t figure out for some reason.
Sé Reed 27:31
Can we talk though, just for a second, real quick, what you’re saying is that Google actually dictates the design trends have most of the internet and they have shifted that stuff around. And by making that shift, they are going to impact design trends. So in order to stay relevant, Squarespace is going to have to move away from their big designs and not telling they’re not gonna tell people this is why we’re moving away from this. They’re just going to be like, here’s the new fresh designs, aren’t they great? And so we’re going to see you No, it’s like you ever see The Devil Wears Prada? Like,
Russell Aaron 28:04
I love the D Where’s p?
Sé Reed 28:06
Yeah. Well she how the whatever Anna Wintour says, you know, you don’t even know that you’re wearing turquoise because we told you to wear turquoise.
Russell Aaron 28:14
Blue was four years ago by a room by people that Yeah,
Sé Reed 28:17
yeah that that quote which amazingly I love that you can just pull that quote up that way.
Russell Aaron 28:21
I love it, man. That’s my
Steve Zehngut 28:23
Sé Reed 28:24
That’s that’s really that’s what Google is doing. Google is the Anna Wintour of web development.
Jason Cosper 28:31
That if you’ve ever, if you’ve ever used Google amp, if you’ve ever been shoehorned off to a Google AMP page, it’s pretty fucking clear. You can Google does not care about design. Yes,
Steve Zehngut 28:44
it’s very clear because you’re here, white matte
Russell Aaron 28:47
black text and put it in a paragraph form and make it you know, it’s 26 point font, so it’s very crystal clear to read it. Yeah.
Sé Reed 28:56
stop caring about your design and start telling people what you’re selling That’s my thing.
Jason Tucker 29:02
Well, that’s it, folks. That is it. The show was definitely not sponsored by Squarespace.
Apparently. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But no, it’s it’s all good. The
first first, first contentful, paint f CP, just load this on one of my clients websites. I’m like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah, they have a monster size header that’s up there. And yeah, they’re getting dinged pretty hard, especially on mobile. So
Sé Reed 29:38
if you just listen to Google, Google has been saying that for a long time, so if everyone just would listen to Google, then they wouldn’t get like bit slapped when, when
Russell Aaron 29:49
this new stuff comes out.
Jason Cosper 29:51
And Monica I like to use for first contentful paint FCP fencing clown posse, it just it I mean, that’s how it’s fixing. My head might help you. Go ahead and use that.
Russell Aaron 30:06
I just found an awesome source from WP rocket on improving first contentful paint like they literally have an article up. So if you use WP rocket, you should go read that article. That’s why I’m going right after this.
Sé Reed 30:18
Surprisingly, that was easy to Google. So I wonder if they’ve got a header. Mm hmm. No header? Probably not.
Jason Tucker 30:25
I folks, we’re out. Here’s our intro and our outro if you want to support us go to patreon.com slash WP water cooler. We’d really appreciate that. You’re some fine folks that have helped us out on Patreon. And subscribe to this content. click that little bell if you’re on Facebook, you can hit the little Share button in the likes as well. We’re a podcast both audio as well as a video show on YouTube. So feel free to go follow us over there. You have a good Good rest your day.
Jason Cosper 31:01
Catch you later. Bye