EP362 – Why you should client-proof a WordPress website

EP362 – Why you should client-proof a WordPress website
Jason Tucker: [00:00:00] Hey, what’s up everyone? This is Jason Tucker and this is episode number 362 of WPwatercooler. Why you should time Creek. That’s website sponsored by ServerPress makers desktop surfer. Check them out. That’s super pro stock home.
Jason Tucker, you can find me over at Jason Tucker on Twitter. My website is Jason Tucker.Blog.
Steve Zehngut: [00:00:23] Steve’s Zehngut I’m the founder of Zeek interactive and I run the OC WordPress Meetup.
Se Reed: [00:00:28] I’m Sé Reed I make WordPress, teach WordPress and preach WordPress at Sé Reed Media on all the things.
Russell Aaron: [00:00:34] My name is Russell Aaron. I do things with WordPress in Las Vegas.
Jason Cosper: [00:00:38] It’s Jason Cosper AKA Fat Mullenweg.
Jason Tucker: [00:00:43] Check us out at Patreon.com/wpwatercooler make sure you hit the subscribe button and click the bell. It’d be cool cause then you’ll be notified when we go live, which happened to me. It was so weird. I looked, I was like, Oh yeah, that’s me. That’s awesome.
Oh wait, does that mean
Sé Reed: [00:01:07] All I can think of is RING MY BEELLLLL RING MY BELL!
Jason Tucker: [00:01:12] So, yeah. We’re going to be talking about the why. Of why you should be,
Steve Zehngut: [00:01:20] why.
Jason Tucker: [00:01:32] The why is the big one. You put your arms out.
Sé Reed: [00:01:34] We’re here for the visual jokes.
Jason Tucker: [00:01:38] So, yeah, let’s, let’s, let’s begin. So last week we talked about, you know, how you should, and we thought we would, go around and say why we should, right. Steve.
Steve Zehngut: [00:01:49] Yes.
Jason Tucker: [00:01:50] Like why we should actually do this
Sé Reed: [00:01:53] for pain?
Steve Zehngut: [00:01:55] What did we talk about?
Jason Tucker: [00:01:58] Well, you know how, yeah. How you use client proof a website.

Sé Reed: [00:02:03] What day is it? What show are we on?
Jason Tucker: [00:02:10] So I think, well, I think to start off with this, why you should do it. I think, for me it’s more along the lines of like making sure that the client doesn’t break the website. I literally just developed for them and spent months on putting together and getting going. So that would probably be like my reason why.
Sé Reed: [00:02:28] You shouldn’t break the internet unless you are trying to break the internet.
Steve Zehngut: [00:02:33] Well, it’s also the two to, I hate to say it this way, but to save them from themselves. Right.
Sé Reed: [00:02:40] I was going to say that, protect, protect them.
Steve Zehngut: [00:02:44] My, clients like to tinker. A lot of my clients like to tinker. Right? And so as soon as you, as soon as you give them over a WordPress website, they’re gonna start messing with things.
Right. And if you can make it so that there are less things to break or less things that can go wrong, you, you should.
Sé Reed: [00:03:02] I actually have a question about that because, we talked about this briefly a couple of months ago, I don’t really remember when, some episode ago, go search on Google, about Gutenberg and we’re talking about the Gutenberg is actually, you know, fairly gives a lot of power that they didn’t have before.
It was just the text editor to the user. And. You know, I’ve been thinking a lot about this because I haven’t built a full, I, I’ve implemented Gutenberg and component and some components on sites, but those are mostly sites that I’m doing stuff, doing that build on. And I haven’t turned over a full Gutenberg site to a client yet.
And I’m wondering, Steve and or whomever, are you, are you styling. Every block are you like, what? How are you client proofing? I guess you’d say why, but how are you playing Gutenberg?
Steve Zehngut: [00:03:54] how are we client proof
Sé Reed: [00:03:55] All of the different blocks so that they show up and they can’t, like, you know, build a monstrosity but can still stay within like the site’s styles?
Steve Zehngut: [00:04:04] Yeah. That depends. Right. And so some of the,
Sé Reed: [00:04:07] My favorite answer!
Steve Zehngut: [00:04:08] Yeah, some of the default Gutenberg blocks and some of the ones that come with, some of the libraries that we’ve mentioned. Give you, give you some design capabilities, right? Not a full page builder, but there are some design capabilities like color choices, font choices, things along those lines.
And so, I actually haven’t client proofed, you know, a Gutenberg site, but, I would look to ways to limit those font choices, color choices. Sizing choices to match a style guide, right? All of this, I think all of this really kind of stems from having a style guide, staying true to a style guide, establishing a style guide, coming up with protocols so that as you move moving forward, the things that you add or your client adds to the site match that style guide, right?
As soon as you start introducing. Design choices, you have the ability to, fall outside of a style guide and that that’s where things start to break. And I just did air quotes for anybody who’s living, who’s listening on audio
Sé Reed: [00:05:11] It doesnt nessessarly break the site functionality, it breaks the sites. what would you even call, I guess, design?
But in a way it’s, it’s, It’s look, but not just, not necessarily, but it’s, it’s, it’s cohesiveness is what it actually breaks, right? And all of a sudden, if you’re on a page and you’re like, what’s this font? Why is this falling in this color? And now suddenly we’re back in word. And you know, every letter is different, but at least with Gutenberg, you can’t change all the letters.
You can only change per block. So there’s, you know, that’s good, at least.
Steve Zehngut: [00:05:44] And since, I mean, since we’re in this industry and we kind of deal with this every day, in all the design, these design things, it’s easy for us to say, okay, well here’s what. What’s wrong with this website? You look at a page and you say, okay, this font is different.
This color doesn’t match, right? This is out now out of ADA compliance, because the contrast is, is, is right? And so, you know, it’s, it’s easy for us on this call to spot that, right? It’s not as easy for our clients to spot it, right? So they may look at a page and say, well, yeah. Something feels different or feels off or feels wrong, but they can’t articulate specifically what went wrong.
Right. Those things are, those things are more subtle.
Sé Reed: [00:06:24] Yeah. And they’ll hit publish and then their clients, their customers will go to that site and it just doesn’t feel as professional. It doesn’t feel as cohesive. And then, you know, that’s like kind of, it’s not so much that they break the site is that it’s a slow degregation of the. The prototype. And I think that that is, it’s like a drip, drip, drip, like that takes away from the impact and the, the full, something.
Jason Tucker: [00:06:55] Well, it’s like you’re saying that you’re saying that last week Sé is that you don’t claim the website after you’ve handed it off to the client, which I totally get
Sé Reed: [00:07:04] yeah
Jason Tucker: [00:07:04] because I have the same problem where it’s like you’ve built the site, you made it look great, you gave it to them, and then they figured out how to get in and get in and start changing things that it’s like, it’s great.
I want them to change stuff. But then, especially with Gutenberg, if you start moving around a bunch of blocks and stuff that were not styled the way that they should have been, essentially you’re having to build like an entire. theme With every single known piece or build a video game with every level, regardless if they’ll make it to there or not.
Sé Reed: [00:07:32] I mean, you know, building custom themes is one thing, but like I have always, we talked about this last week too, you know, have used like fields. If we need something to be in a certain, you know, if this word or this title or this section of the page needs to be in a certain font or design element, then.
You know, we put it in a different field so that it automatically does that and the client isn’t responsible for, for styling that. But, you know, with Gutenberg, it really, it really doesn’t allow allow for that to much, which is one of my big hesitations currently as why I was asking, cause I’m actually, this is actually a dilemma I am currently facing.
Steve Zehngut: [00:08:11] So, so let’s bring it back around to the why, right? The reason this is important is because if your client, or if anybody has the ability to break away from their brand or their styleguide, or make the site feel less professional,
Sé Reed: [00:08:27] right?
Steve Zehngut: [00:08:27] It’s going to affect your business, right? And these are, these are a little bit more.
Sé Reed: [00:08:32] Their Business
Steve Zehngut: [00:08:32] Anywhere business. Yeah, but that’s what I mean. I mean, their business, right? It’s a little bit more indirect. Right? But if the site doesn’t feel cohesive or professional or it’s off-brand or any of the things that we just described, then the perception is that the, you know, that the brand or the company isn’t as professional as they’re as they’re trying to convey.
If it’s an eCommerce site right now, your site feels a little bit less professional. And that’s going to affect your sales,
Sé Reed: [00:09:01] the word ads.
Steve Zehngut: [00:09:02] That’s ultimately the results here..
Sé Reed: [00:09:04] It feels Jakey.
Steve Zehngut: [00:09:05] Jakey is perfect. That’s a great word. That is actually the technical term for it.
Sé Reed: [00:09:09] The technical term, you’re like the second little janky.
I’m not sure. I want to give them my credit card. Like that. That’s the, that’s the, you know, and if something, it look totally professional and actually be sketch and not even selling you anything, but you’re like, I feel comfortable with, well not me or it probably us, but people are like, I feel comfortable putting my credit card in here because it looks good.
It looks like something’s happening here versus a perfectly legitimate small business site that may not look right. And then it raises those, those red flags for the client.
Steve Zehngut: [00:09:40] It’s the difference between going into the Apple store and going into Fry’s. Right?
Sé Reed: [00:09:45] That’s a good one.
Steve Zehngut: [00:09:46] Right. You know the Apple story, that just, it just feels a certain way.
You walk in there, right, and everything is on brand. It’s cohesive, it’s consistent. It just, there’s a certain feeling, right. And you pay more as a result. You walk into front, well. That’s what I’m thinking about fries, right? I’m thinking of, has anybody been to a Fry’s recently?
Sé Reed: [00:10:11] Aren’t they all gone?
Steve Zehngut: [00:10:13] Thing, this is a tangent, but, but do it through. Do a search for on YouTube for. I think it’s Fry’s walkthrough. right before, right before covert hit, there was a whole investigative kind of investigative report on Fry’s. I went into a Fry’s about three months ago. Fry’s are empty, but they’re still there.
And
Sé Reed: [00:10:33] they have a
Steve Zehngut: [00:10:34] weird design, like
Sé Reed: [00:10:34] the moonscapes or whatever,
Steve Zehngut: [00:10:37] it’s not even that. Like they’re not even, they’re not stocked anymore qand there’s nobody working there. You walk in, it’s like a ghost town. It’s very weird. Anyway, that’s a tangent.
Sé Reed: [00:10:47] Example of, of a website that if you walk in and it doesn’t feel right, you’re like, what’s going on here?
Are these people going to actually ship my product to me? Or, you know, is this someone I want to trust my business to?
Jason Tucker: [00:11:02] I think if, for instance, if we went, if we went back to the eCommerce side of things, let’s say that you classified everything, with certain categories, and, and the person went and created a whole new category and maybe didn’t set it up right so that, that new category would automatically show up on the website.
So they started throwing everything inside, you know, like, like, like kids toys, like boys toys, and then you put in girl’s toys, but then they made another one that’s like male toys or, or, or, or.
Steve Zehngut: [00:11:31] No, keep going, keep going.
Jason Cosper: [00:11:33] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Jason, how do you tell if it’s a male toy or not?
You classified this incorrectly, but it’s on the website. The website’s expecting things to show up in this one category, but they got into a totally different category.
Sé Reed: [00:11:50] Right,
Jason Tucker: [00:11:51] bye, bye you if you didn’t set up the site and say like, show all categories on the page on this one category list, and also make it so that when you go into that category, it has maybe the header and it has all the pieces that it needs to have in there.
The person, you know, you have their customer going on the site and they’re looking for a specific thing. The header is going to be missing cause it wasn’t in there and it’s expecting it. The category maybe not even showing up in the list because you have a very, you know, finite list of, categories.
Things like that would make their site look bad and maybe they’re launching a new product and now no one’s buying it because it wasn’t set up appropriately.
Sé Reed: [00:12:28] I would argue that you need to, style all of your category archives. So if they do make a category, it will show up properly and not just break.
I actually, a current client that I have, they create a, that I’ve been detangling for like forever. they have some page templates set up that are like super hard coded their page templates. But if you just create a page, it’s a, it’s like what is even ha. There’s like, it’s all sorts of chaos and nothing’s on there, right?
And there’s no header and it’s like you can’t just make a page and all of the page templates are specific to specific pages. So they’ve created a site where you just can’t make new pages. It doesn’t even like, they’re like, we don’t even know a page, which is kind of, I would argue, one of the most default aspects of a website.
Steve Zehngut: [00:13:15] Yes, but the more, the more you give, the ability to. And features where the end user gets lost, right? Or has more, more clicks to get to the destination. The more, again, it affects sales, especially on an eCommerce site. The more I argue that if you, if you don’t have a way to just get to the buy page, very quickly, get to the product page very quickly, you’re going to affect sales
or the call
Sé Reed: [00:13:41] to action page, whatever,
Steve Zehngut: [00:13:43] or just having a call to action, right?
A consistent call to action should be part of your style guide.
Sé Reed: [00:13:49] I, I also with the creating the pages, not to talk about the call to action, but, do you have clients who just create pages that are in now no order? There’s no sub page that just like the page, the page list becomes just this like monstrosity of drafts and.
Duplicated pages and pages that aren’t in their sub page. Proper parent had her, and it’s just like you go in there and you’re like, what are you even doing in here? This is 10,000 meters.
Steve Zehngut: [00:14:20] So switching gears for second,
Sé Reed: [00:14:22] back to the style guide, because it’s not about style and design in my mind, it’s really about workflow.
Like when you’re creating structure, content, structure, this isn’t just how the site looks, because that’s, that’s what everyone thinks when they talk about design. But design is so much more than just the colors and the look, right? It’s how do these pages fit together and how does this content fit together?
So. I would argue that a style guide is even a limiting term for it because that doesn’t imply that you should look there for the workflow of creating a new category or creating a new page and that that should have some, some structure as well. Like if you’re going to create a new page, you need to be able to be sure that it, you know, these pages go here and these pages go here and you know that, that, that’s one way to, to prove it.
What were you gonna say, Steve? Sorry.
Steve Zehngut: [00:15:14] I was going to say, just switching gears for a minute, one of the things that we turn off, on all of our client’s sites, some, some, some don’t care and some hate it is we turn off the ability to add new plugins.
Sé Reed: [00:15:24] That’s smart
Steve Zehngut: [00:15:25] right. And, and, and we do that because, When you add a plugin, if you just add a plugin and activate it, you were at that point, cowboy coding, right?
You were adding a new code. You are adding new code to the website. Updating plugins. We just, we disabled that as well. Updating plugins is, again, it’s cowboy coding. You’re adding code that you haven’t tested to a website, so you could break the website B. Adding new plugins Willy nilly is just a bad idea, right?
Any, any plugins, but especially plugins that have front affect on the front end. Right? And specifically I’m talking about plugins that add JavaScript to your site. You don’t know what kind of effect that’s going to have on your website.
Sé Reed: [00:16:06] I have a client who, well there. I help with their website anyway and they brought someone on to help them build out some pages and that person was trying to solve some problem.
I had nothing to do with this. And they had saw the caching plugin and then caching problem didn’t solve. The caching plugin did not solve that problem. But what I did do was somehow, and I haven’t quite figured this out yet, cause of course I have to go in and untangle it, is remove page revisions. so now the page revisions are not there and then the client needed to go back.
To a previous version of the page, and I’m like, read your page revisions go? now. That’s just disappeared, and now we’re just basically untangling this whole thing because that, that plugin was put in there with no knowledge of what that plugin was even going to do, and it was done. Just like, let’s see if this works.
Let’s throw some spaghetti on the wall, and you know,
Steve Zehngut: [00:17:04] that’s literally what it is.
Sé Reed: [00:17:06] It’s literally what I can work on now.
Jason Tucker: [00:17:11] I don’t know. I don’t know how many times I went to a meetup where we talked about re turning off page revisions because it adds bloat. Yeah. That’s bloat. It’s essentially making a revision, you know, for every time you change something on, you know, one of those posts.
Users need that. People like us, we probably, we come up with our own ways of, of making sure we don’t break something before we, you know, change it. But yeah, plenty of them do. And they need to hit the undo button.
Jason Cosper: [00:17:38] I still break stuff all the time, even though I have a,
Jason Tucker: [00:17:43] I was trying to make you sound good come on Cosper!
Sé Reed: [00:17:45] On your
Jason Tucker: [00:17:48] keyboard
Sé Reed: [00:17:49] and it sends you off that page and you’re like, Oh, it didn’t have a backup. It didn’t have the auto save. I need that. Like that’s just, that could be like a hand slip. That doesn’t necessarily have to be like, you don’t know what you’re doing. That means you hit the wrong, you close the window or it should ask you if you close
Steve Zehngut: [00:18:06] this is why I don’t blog.
Jason Cosper: [00:18:11] As someone who’s worked in web hosting for ages and has had to run departments of, tech support people. I mean, a lot of solutions when somebody. you know, comes along and says, Hey, my site is slow. This is slow. That is, you know, things aren’t doing what they should be doing. half the time. and not everybody, but, hosts often go, Oh, we’ll try this plugin out.
And see and Steve immediately was shaking his head, Sé, shake our head. Yeah. Yeah. Just just install this optimized plugin, just installed this
Sé Reed: [00:18:48] just turn off all of your plugins to see which one the problem
didn’t shut them all down. I’m sure it won’t affect anything at all.
Steve Zehngut: [00:18:59] What could possibly go wrong?
Sé Reed: [00:19:01] And then turn them all back on and see if you notice a difference.
One of the ways, this is a problem though, in terms of. DIY and your own website, right? Like even, you know, it’s not just WordPress, but obviously WordPress really is the whole core thing here is that you can do it yourself. You’re doing this site. But I think what it really comes down to is after you can, and you totally can, but should you, you know, should you do it?
If you don’t, should you be installing plugins? If your, if your income on that. Right? Like this is a level of depends on it. If it’s like what Jason always talks about, your grandma’s cat blog, and it doesn’t matter, you know, install all the plugins all day, but if people are coming to that site and they’re forming opinions of your business and it affects your branding and it affects your.
Your employees and your livelihood, then you probably shouldn’t just be winging it with this aspect of the site, like you wouldn’t bring your taxes. You know what I mean? Well, maybe some people, when they’re
You shouldn’t wing doing your taxes,
Steve Zehngut: [00:20:04] shouldn’t, don’t want, don’t wing your taxes. If there’s any, if there’s one takeaway from today’s show, don’t wing your taxes.
Jason Tucker: [00:20:11] That’s it. Really.
Steve Zehngut: [00:20:12] No. I was going to say, I mean, again, back to the why. I mean, the reason you don’t want to just install plugins or you also don’t want to necessarily update or install plugins on your production server is a, it could cause your site to be slow, right?
For many reasons. There’s all kinds of reasons that can happen, right? It can cause bloat. It can cause your site to crash, right? You could, you could just go down, because , you’re adding plugins. But one of the, one of the. Background issues that , I’m concerned about is, let’s say you’re in a Sé’s situation where somebody is just testing a plugin, you activate a plugin, you deactivate a plugin, right? Just to see what it does, right? What you’re not realizing is that plugin may have just added 10 tables of your database,
Sé Reed: [00:20:55] Right!
Steve Zehngut: [00:20:56] And they’re just sitting
Sé Reed: [00:20:57] there. They’re just there
Steve Zehngut: [00:20:59] now. They’re right. And. That by itself is pro is, is not really a problem. But I’ve, I’ve taken on, I’ve taken on, projects, inherited projects before where, and one of the first analysis we do is we look at the database and we, we look at all the tables in the database and compare it to the active plugins, right?
Because I want to know what tables are not necessary anymore. And sometimes I’ve literally, and I. This is, I’m not exaggerating here. I’ve had a hundred extra tables in the database that just were not necessary because of plugins that used to be active at one time or were tested and are now no longer there.
And so. There’s, there’s a lot of effects that plugins have on your server that you might not know about,
Sé Reed: [00:21:43] or even possibly worse as they leave them all on. You know, in the case that there’s like multiple slider plugins that are all on
Steve Zehngut: [00:21:52] Ugh…
Sé Reed: [00:21:52] one site that has actually an active client site. So on a re tangling, it has multiple three Oh one redirect.
Active plugins,
Steve Zehngut: [00:22:00] well, that gives you, that gives you better redirection, more, more redirection plugin, better redirection. Right? T
Sé Reed: [00:22:06] hey’re both
Steve Zehngut: [00:22:07] I’m being used sarcastic.
Sé Reed: [00:22:08] I don’t even know what is happening. So like I can’t even detangle it because, Oh my God, what? What is even happening there? Like that is like one of those things where I’m like, we just have to scrap this.
And the hard part is explaining that to the client because they don’t see, they can’t tell what the value of that is. And so explaining to them that you have to detangle something that they can’t see and they don’t understand the impact of, that’s maybe one of my most complicated. Part of my, my work is to be like, well, this thing you can’t see is really important and you know, it was causing problems.
And they’re like, is that causing the problem that’s right in front of my face right this second? I’m like, no, but it will come and it’s probably relating to that problem. Yeah. Sorry.
Steve Zehngut: [00:22:58] Go ahead. Casper.
Sé Reed: [00:23:00] Take it away. I was,
Jason Cosper: [00:23:02] I was just going to make a joke about, two to three Oh one plugins. That’s like a six Oh two redirect.
Steve Zehngut: [00:23:15] Listen, just for the audience, and this is, this is a running joke on the show. More redirection plugins. Is not better. Right? More slider plugins for SEO plugin. Caching plugins is not better. More SEO plugins you need, you need one of each, if at all, right? I recommend zero slider plugins, but if you’re going to use a slider plugin, one,
Sé Reed: [00:23:37] do not use relevant one, not more than one “REvolution”.
Oh my Lord. It is a nightmare. I don’t know if you have inherited on any sites. I’ve never installed about anything, but it is. It is, and I don’t usually, you know, we don’t usually single out specific products, but.
Steve Zehngut: [00:23:55] And so Mo, multiple SEO plugins can actually cause your site to have real problems.
Multiple crashing plugins can actually cause your site not to work. Right. and so, those, these things are, are important.
Sé Reed: [00:24:09] I mean, the three, Oh one thing is, is definitely a problem because you, if you don’t know where the. Didn’t really impact your SEO and this could really just impact even your site functionality.
You’re like trying to build a page and you’re like, why does this page keep going to some other page? And it’s some hidden, you know, thing on a plugin you don’t even know you’re using because it’s buried in settings. Well, they don’t even realize that it’s on.
Steve Zehngut: [00:24:33] If you’re using Yoast. Premium. I think it is redirections included right in your premium
Sé Reed: [00:24:39] That’s the way
Steve Zehngut: [00:24:41] to do
Sé Reed: [00:24:41] it is to use one plugin that can do because three Oh three Oh one redirects are an SEO issue, and so using it is part of an SEO plugin and not installing another whole plugin that you have to maintain and update and monitor.
I think it’s worth that extra, the extra dollars in
Steve Zehngut: [00:25:00] Cosper, correct me if I’m wrong here, I may not get the technology right, but using having 301 redirects as a piece of software as a plugin, is. Inferior to actually having a host that does it on at the server level. Right? And so if you’re with somebody like a, like a, like a WP Engine for instance, and it’s the only one I can think of off hand that actually gives you a panel for redirects within your, hosting environment, that’s actually a better solution than a software solution.
Jason Cosper: [00:25:29] It. It absolutely is. Basically, you’re doing things at the NginX level. It doesn’t even need to hit pap at all at that point. So basically, yeah, so basically the server sees the request it comes in, it doesn’t have to spin up a PHP process and then add all of that overhead. so if you can do a server level redirect, that’s.
Way better, but that is for, you know, the, the people, my ride’s here, [beep beep ] I’m sorry, it just, I’m not sure if you’ve heard that.
Sé Reed: [00:26:08] This is more of a technical question. Do. Do you use anything, Steve, for short links? It’s just made me think of it
Steve Zehngut: [00:26:16] for short length.
Sé Reed: [00:26:17] Yeah, like four, four to create like link, like something that doesn’t have the full page title, which might be the SEO title.
Steve Zehngut: [00:26:24] But, currently I use tiny URL.
Sé Reed: [00:26:26] Just that.
Steve Zehngut: [00:26:27] Yeah.
Sé Reed: [00:26:28] Nothing, nothing for the sites specifically
Jason Tucker: [00:26:30] I use one called, YOURLs, YOURLs. Y O U R L S. And it runs outside of WordPress and outside of everything. But there’s plugins that will use the API for it to do it.
But yeah.
Steve Zehngut: [00:26:48] Why you asking? Why are you asking?
Sé Reed: [00:26:52] just cause it occurred to me when we were talking about that, and I thought you might have an answer.
That wasn’t a very good answer.
But sorry, they can’t all be winners
Steve Zehngut: [00:27:02] Jason’s done to me in the past. He’ll send you a link at on. Let me Google that for you.com
right, exactly. I mean I could have just turned in the last two minutes cause you know it’s the end of part of the show is like. “Can Sé get some advice please real quick, just on what you guys are using.”
That’s L, L, M, G, T, F, Y, Jason, the 70 several of those
Jason Tucker: [00:27:36] good stuff.
Sé Reed: [00:27:37] Well, anyway, that’s what I think.
Can we put that at the end? The little jingle too
happens right this second here we go
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