Jason Tucker: 00:00 The topic is Mo money, Mo problems. Feel free to send over the comments over to Sé Reed over at SeReedmedia.com Oh man. So this particular episode of WPwatercooler is brought to you by ServerPress makers, of DesktopServer. Go over to their website over at serverpress.com where you can learn how you can do some local WordPress website development and be able to push those out to your web host of choice and be able to do all your development locally over at serverpress.com. All right, let's get everyone introduced. Let's start with woah.. Russ. Russ, what's up Russ? How's it going man?
Russell Aaron: 00:38 Hey, how's it going? Long time listener. First time caller. Ah, I have to go you know, we're can Vegas as a couple of weeks and I missed you guys. So I wanted to come back and, you know, say hi.
Jason Tucker: 00:52 Awesome. Good to have you on again. How about you Cosper tell us about yourself.
Jason Cosper: 00:58 Hey everybody. Jason Cosper, AKA fat Mullenweg. Now tell me now who's hot, who's not Mo money. Mo problems, right? Let's get into it this week, right?
Sé Reed: 01:08 Is that hot or not?
Jason Tucker: 01:10 Oh man.
Russell Aaron: 01:16 42 and I had thumbs down is all you know. That's where I was.
Manny Costa: 01:19 It was it, was it the Mark Zuckerberg's first website, right?
Jason Tucker: 01:23 No. Might as well have been, but Hey, you know Manny, how about you? Tell us about yourself.
Manny Costa: 01:28 Hey guys. I'm Manny a WordPress developer based in Vegas is one of the core organizers. WordCamp Las Vegas 2019 together with Russ and we already talking plans for the next year and actually we also have something, some news here Las Vegas. Next month we're going to stop the chapter of a a WordPress meet up for Developers.
Russell Aaron: 01:55 We're slowly catching up to OC.
Jason Tucker: 02:04 How about you Sé, tell us about yourself.
Sé Reed: 02:09 I'm Sé, yeah, I'm make WordPress. Teach WordPress.
Jason Tucker: 02:22 How about you Jonathan?
Jonathan Wold: 02:25 Jonathan Wold. I love talking about WordPress. I'm looking forward to work camp long beach and a couple of weeks here. Good time.
Jason Tucker: 02:36 I'm Jason Tucker. You find me over @JasonTucker on Twitter. My website is JasonTucker.blog and I do this show as well as WPblab. So feel free. Go take a look at that over at wpwatercooler.com/wpblab. I do want to tell you one thing and I want to tell us at the beginning before you know, towards the end, people start, you know, bailing out. And I want to let you know that we're, we're doing, we're doing one of those feedback things like I did last last year and I got a lot of really good feedback and implemented a lot of them and I wanted to see if I can have you guys do that again. So if you go to wpwatercooler.com/feedback, you can leave a little bit of feedback for us. I'll be sharing it with all the panelists as well as all the past panelists so they'll know what's going on and you know, hopefully it'll help them out with a figuring out what we should do on this show. So we'd love to have it.
Russell Aaron: 03:18 Did you say that It's WPwatercolor.com/feedback?
Jason Tucker: 03:23 That would be WPwatercooler.com/feedback.
Sé Reed: 03:26 Cool, looking forward to what people say on WPwatercolor.com/feedback that's cool. Sometimes when you ask for feedback, you get it!
Jason Tucker: 03:38 But it's true. And I, and I did last time, but it was fun. So let's talk about more money, more problems. So we had, we had recent, we had recent announcements. Oh, and I have WPblab's logo showing up on the corner there. Let's fix that. So I don't even know. It's too early. I don't even know yet. It's too early.
Russell Aaron: 04:01 It's subliberal messaging is what it is. Let's just change everything. Why not? You know, let's just change it all.
Sé Reed: 04:06 Favorite show, Jason, we know.
Jason Tucker: 04:09 I know, I know. So, so let's talk, let's talk about the recent announcements that were going on in WordPress. Who wants to take off? Take on the first one.
Sé Reed: 04:19 We've got that series D, in the house!
Jason Cosper: 04:21 So? Yeah. Salesforce slipped Automatic. The D funding, right? Yeah.
Russell Aaron: 04:39 I dont know why that isn't the title on Twitter. I don't know why that when he shared that you're constantly, you should make that habit.
Sé Reed: 04:44 Well, that's what this show is for!
Russell Aaron: 04:49 So I don't know if you guys know, I'm live in the bank vault. The money's like right over there. Like I saw it happen.
Sé Reed: 04:56 So basically, Oh look there, look, there it is. We were debating whether they raise 3 billion, but basically this is Automattic. I liked, like even within this group, everyone's like, you know, WordPress rates. I'm like, yo, come on. We gotta keep it together here. WordPress raises money? Automattic raises money automatically as a bigger company than just wordpress.com. And that is important to remember because especially now that automatic owns tumbler is it ain't just wordpress.com. So there's a lot more to that than just wordpress.com. Hopefully a lot of that is WordPress.com But anyway, automattic raise $300 million in a series D all from Salesforce.
Jason Cosper: 05:46 From Salesforce's investment range, right? So with, let's be clear that Salesforce just didn't acquire $300 million worth or whatever.
Russell Aaron: 06:03 I mean, there platform raised the money. That's what Salesforce is all about.
Sé Reed: 06:08 The people who made all their money off of Salesforce have invested in Automattic, which, you know, Hey, Salesforce is, is is kind of a thing. I dunno.
Russell Aaron: 06:20 She's got Jonathan you said you were excited.
Jonathan Wold: 06:22 Well, there's two things that I think are particularly interesting about this and then Krogsgard did a really good job of covering some of the, like the take on the motivations and there's a lot of general alignment with it's interesting that Matt and his post about it mentioned VIP in a sort of general alignment with WordPress in the enterprise in Salesforce. For me, I also, one of the, the in the interview that Matt did for tech crunch, I love the reference to, again, him talking about building the operating system of the web and..
Sé Reed: 06:52 I want to be here real quick. Happens to be the topic of mr Jonathan Wold's talk at the future of WordPress at. WordCamp, Long Beach opening Sunday track K. Sorry. Plus
Jonathan Wold: 07:07 I'm excited about that. But I think this is probably mostly focused, mostly focused on the enterprise, but for me it's also another indicator of just that idea of continuing to develop. And obviously Salesforce, they have a long history in software as a service and a lot of that operating system thinking, at least from my perspective is rooted in a lot of what they built over the years. So I think it's a good sign for a lot of different reasons.
Sé Reed: 07:32 I mean the fact that, you know, on honestly funding funding, successful funding series series, I, they're always a good sign for that company. I mean in general it means that, you know, so it's just like when you get a loan or whatever, someone is willing to take that, then that's a pretty big bet, right? Like maybe not in terms of risk, but in terms of money, you know, full thing there. So the fact that you know any well known, established a fund is willing to do that is, you know, is a real vote of confidence for Automattic, which will, I hate to use the whole concept of tripled, trickle down,
Jonathan Wold: 08:15 Very little effect. There's a halo effect.
Sé Reed: 08:18 Do you know what halo effect is? A way better term, way better. But yeah, so like the, the fact that they're, you know, they're willing to take that and that like, you know, I think the first time that they have begin this taking money since, was it 2014.
Jonathan Wold: 08:37 I think that that sounds about right.
Sé Reed: 08:40 That's a, that's a long time. And the fact that, you know, automatic has been so selective with that, you know, more people into volunteering to build Gutenberg quicker and faster. Well, it's interesting, you're formerly known as gluten free.
Jonathan Wold: 08:56 All that Matt said about it. I mean, one of the highlights rather than what you said about it is that this is more about celebration. He doesn't expect any significant changes to Automattic's roadmap. What they thought they can do at 10 years. They can hopefully now do in five.
Sé Reed: 09:10 Which to be honest is really important because taking the, the length of time that the development took to even get to where we're at with the block editor, honestly, it's kind of behind the times and that has caused the problems for the competition to come up and make those, you know, bring that bridge, that gap. And so the 10 years that you can take for open source to move everything along, if they're able to put more people on that team and advance that further than that's good for all of us.
Manny Costa: 09:44 All right. What was the evaluation in 2014?
Jonathan Wold: 09:47 I don't what, what was the evaluation then? I don't remember that.
Sé Reed: 09:52 Google it, that, that Google will know. Promise.
New Speaker: 09:58 I think it was you know, 1 billion 3 billion in four years. It's a big thing.
Sé Reed: 10:06 Five years, but okay.
Jonathan Wold: 10:07 Yeah. 1.6 billion was according to one point 16 I'm, I met mr itis just over 1 million.
Jason Tucker: 10:16 What do you guys think about this idea of him stating that it was the building, "the operating system of the web"? What do you guys think of that? You know, for like, jeez, for years on watercooler we've been talking about like headless WordPress installations and that sort of thing, which would essentially be like the operating system of the web if you're doing that. But more and more things are becoming service serverless. More and more things are using. You know, you got graphQL, you got all these other things that are, that are happening that just that I don't know if they're as popular or not or they're just not being talked about as much. But when you have something like WordPress where every blog that doesn't pay for a domain name that's on wordpress.com has a wordpress.com at the end of it it, you know, it, it makes sense that everyone's using WordPress, but it's like the rest of these technologies require you to, you know, be someone in the know to be able to use it. So "the operating system of the web", it kind of sounds you know, plausible at least because of just how, what percentage of the web a WordPress is running on.
Russell Aaron: 11:19 I feel like if you own a third or you know, like, like we keep saying it's 30-33% of the internet, I feel like you can make that kind of statement. Like, you know, this is our goal, but it's more of a motto than, you know, like, like the end thing. But I do think that there's tons of people out there that are building WordPress, micro major, large niche and authority websites. And I think like they continue to grow and especially with somebody like Salesforce, adding their knowledge behind WordPress, it's going to keep growing. And I don't see why we couldn't make it "the operating system of the web". But I mean, you know, Ruby still good. Python's great. Jquery is great. Like it's not, you know, the language but an operating system. I'd go with that. I'd wear a tee shirt and said that
Sé Reed: 12:04 For the record, it's not just, I mean, I think you're talking about the operating system of the weapon attack line, but as of right this minute the w3 texts you know, percentage that they're given is 34.6%. So that is above a third of the web and that whole web, not just the operating systems because they are not just the CMS cause that's 51.3% which is, that's almost two thirds of all of the content management systems. So the, you know, I always, I do a lot of talks where I tell people this like "why WordPress?" And I'm like at the end of the day those numbers are inescapable. Like, you know, this is, you're gonna have sites that are in this, you know what I mean? As much as it seems like Squarespace is dominating the market with podcasts, marketing and Wix is like, you know, throwing up the ads on Google or whatever the hell. But like in terms of actual use, like it's still WordPress.
Russell Aaron: 12:58 Not only that, not only that, but I want to say that like there's more people showing up that want to learn to know WordPress. Like we're seeing a huge wave of beginners, like still like this beginner wave is still coming in. And like there's like when you tell somebody that you can just add WP hyphen admin to the end of an any .com and see if it's WordPress. Like they will, I did that when somebody showed me that for like a week. Like that's all the idea. They just locked it up in a hole and I was just like orange County choppers, WordPress site. Like, you know, this site, this site. Like I did it all. When you show somebody that they just start scouring the internet, like they see the big picture and like I think that hook would work.
Manny Costa: 13:36 Right. Good. Going back to the $300 million, I have a question for you guys. What do you guys think is going to be the impact in the foundation and or if any of this investment, is there going to be anything that [inaudible] yeah, if they get upgrades no. To github instead of, you know,
Jonathan Wold: 13:54 No, I don't think you're going to see much change. I mean, I think it is more about the signals, the vote of confidence. And there's certainly a like I don't, the details aren't public and I certainly don't know, like automatic is profitable. We don't know how much, but it's not like they needed the money so much as it was welcome. They,
Sé Reed: 14:13 They need the money, business who is expanding needs the money. Yeah. You're expanding and you need the money because you're going to this next level and you need to bridge that gap like that. So there's a sense of needing the money there because you can't grow unless you have the cash in pocket to do that. Right. Even though
Jonathan Wold: 14:31 As far as like the foundations of though from, at least from an outside perspective, I feel like it's very business as usual. This is just about accelerating what's happening. So
Sé Reed: 14:40 I mean, I think in terms of acceleration, I think that there will probably be some more people added on to the, the teams that are volunteered out to the WordPress project and.
Jonathan Wold: 14:54 five for the future.
Sé Reed: 14:55 Yeah. Like that's probably gonna get up because the more people who are dedicated to working on that, regardless of who they work for, I mean that's a whole controversial topic. But regardless of who they work for, if you've got two more full time people working on the, that's gonna accelerate the project and you're going to be able to take up different components that you haven't been. So the fact that, I honestly feel that like the code base of WordPress right now, since, since the Gutenberg hump has gotten over, like that freeze, I feel like
Russell Aaron: 15:27 I was just listening to that song the other day, the Gutenberg home,
Sé Reed: 15:31 I think that it has really accelerated, like we're like 5.3 the stuff that's coming out, which is like the beta is out like next week or something like that. That's moving quick and there is stuff, there's, you know, it's not like these are dinky releases. So if we add more, if they're adding more people to that and look at, it's not godaddy, you know, bluehost's DreamHost, you know, all of these people are all putting in Mo money to this. Everyone's kind of doubling down on this. So it's WordPress isn't the wordpress.com and Automattic aren't the only people who are putting money into this on the enterprise level or on the consumer level?
Russell Aaron: 16:12 Well, I mean I just want to add to that, I mean like, you know, we had Calypso, do you remember Calypso is like, like, like the whole app and stuff like that was the big thing and getting over and like, Woohoo. Squarespace or Wix, somebody like made their app using that or something. I mean, yeah, we keep seeing, you know, companies copying this. So I feel like, you know, Salesforce is saying instead of doing that, like let's partner with them and like let's get more integrations in there. Let's make it easier. Like setting a Woocommerce and going into Salesforce. I mean, we haven't even talked about that yet, but like that's a common kind of web. You're kind of weave anyway. But I mean hopefully if he gets better, I'm offered like saying go use Salesforce. You know, like I still am, but I think I'd be a bigger advocate once, you know, it's, it's more hands on like, you know, once two years, cause I give it two years. Once they see what WordPress does with the users do and how they use it, I think, you know, Squarespace is gonna be beefier and better. You know, like a Salesforce, Salesforce, they all start with an man except Wix, you know, but I think using our code base or using our users, the test, I mean it's great. Like that's what I love about the open source and I think they do too.
Manny Costa: 17:31 Do you guys see the plan is to go public someday, Automattic?
Jason Tucker: 17:35 A lot of people say that, but you know, in Matt's interview he specifically said about the automatic team. He can't wait to work next to the 800 people or 1500 people that he's going to be working with for the next 15 years. And that doesn't sound me like someone who's like trying to go public and use that hierarchy situation that's there. Yeah, that's great. Inferring from that, like
Russell Aaron: 17:59 Airbnb, I think we, I think Airbnb is going to go public before WordPress cause they have it slated for next year or something like that. So yeah, I think it's gonna be awhile.
Sé Reed: 18:09 Yeah. I think the one thing we need to keep, remember remembering here in this is that, that this is, this is something that Automattic is, is getting, this is something that WordPress, the project is getting. Like that WordPress, the project is a totally separate, totally separate everything. You know, when you're looking at even like you go on TechCrunch's website, Verizon pays WordPress VIP to have that hosting and have that website infrastructure in place. That's what's benefiting this. All the folks that are building cat blogs and building different WooCommerce sites and building all these things that are, you know, us using wordpress.com the project and using that code base that's not what's benefiting this. If anything, it's putting the word out that Automattic exists. It puts the word out. Something called WordPress exists, but it doesn't, it doesn't show that. Like, you know, like we've always told our, you know, our customers too, that you're using a product, something called WordPress that builds your website. WordPress isn't supposed to be the focus of the, of the project. It's a focus for us. Cause that's what we chose as "our operating system of the web". But when it comes to the, you know, the product itself, the, the, the customer doesn't really care what you're using. They just want to use whatever's the best and whatever works really well.
Sé Reed: 19:31 They care once they can't do a thing. So, yeah, and they both ways though,
Sé Reed: 19:39 But w but it's on both ways though. So like if you're using Wix or Weebly or any of those types of things, you hit a limitation wall at some point. And when you hit that limitation wall, then you go like, okay, I need to find something else. And then you go and talk to somebody who does Drupal, who does WordPress, who does, you know, any of those sorts of things. And then you go to talk to them and then at some point their developer abandons them and now they're stuck with something that doesn't work again. So it's like WordPress itself isn't, WordPresses the technology that we, the nerds use, but it's not something that the, you know, the general public is using and really getting excited about and hoping that they get that T shirt that says WordPress on it.
Sé Reed: 20:17 But why does he don't think that's true in terms of go daddy and Bluehost and DreamHost and the, you know, all of the hosts, WP engine who are using the core version of WordPress, not the wordpress.com, you know, kind of amended version of WordPress. Although there are a lot of folks out there like in hosting, in hosting, hosting, I can't remember who there, but they like for example, a motion InMotion is an emotion. I don't know who it is. Anyway, there are other hosting companies who changed the dashboard who do different things with what you're able to see. So they are kind of changing the core version of WordPress. But all of those companies do use that core version of WordPress and they are pushing that in terms of marketing and they are pushing that in terms like I see ads in my feeds for WordPress from GoDaddy, right? Like that's not from wordpress.com that's not from WordPress the project that's go down putting marketing dollars into promoting their managed WordPress hosting.
Jonathan Wold: 21:23 Don't forget [inaudible] dot com with the business plan, like I expect to see that open up more over time. You can install plugins now. Like there's, you know, they're, you're gonna always have that sort of streamlined, separated version I imagine on.com but there's, I expect over time for there to be more alignment rather than less with the broader WordPress ecosystem in terms of plugins and themes.
Sé Reed: 21:42 You can also use your dashboard on on wordpress.com so it's not gone. It's not that it's not there. It just has a layer on top of it, which is what a lot of, I mean it's essentially like your hosting dashboard, which is like logging into your user portal of WP and Jen or your GoDaddy hosting, whatever the hell they call that. Now customer land.
Jonathan Wold: 22:05 I think what this tell, well one of the, just the general senses I have about WordPress is that we're still in the early days, which seems kind of strange.
Sé Reed: 22:12 That's like a revolutionary statement,
Jonathan Wold: 22:15 But I feel like we're, it's still early, like, and not even so much like you have this percentage of the web thing and it will continue to grow. I mean, just based on current trajectory that's going to, we're on a clear path to 40, 50%, but I don't think that's so much where all the potential is going to be. Like I'm, for me, seeing new people coming in is one of the biggest positive indicators. And with all those new people coming in and we have a host of problems that we have to work through the onboard experience, what does it look like? Are they succeeding? So there's I think it's still, it's still early. I feel optimistic and positive, but I think it's continued success. It's not going anywhere for a long time, but it's continued success as and to be taken for granted and it's gonna require like a lot of work on a lot of different parts. Automatic is a key aspect of all of this. But
Sé Reed: 23:09 I, I'm actually really interested in the impact. So another one of the talks that we had happening actually right after your talk Jonathan is to talk from Andrea Middleton and is at word camp on wage October six that is about the WordPress community and scale. And this is where those Mo problems come in because as wordpress.com grows as WordPress.org grows as the whole community of all of this stuff, like I personally have seen problems in the community growing because it used to be this really like tight knit cute community and now it's kind of was, was a little bit sheltered from the, what I like to call the "tech bro world," which was kind of over there. And we were like this sort of sheltered little garden, but like this, now we're seeing that we're seeing those, those kind of attitudes come in. There's more masogeny in your past than I've ever seen before. And I've been around here for a long time.
Jason Cosper: 24:08 It was there, it was there before. It just wasn't as visible.
Sé Reed: 24:12 You know what? It was there before. And I've been subject to that in different, in different arenas over the course. But it was not, it's not so much that it wasn't as as visible, it's that it wasn't as prevalent, honestly. Like the attitudes of that stuff have really come over and because people are like, Oh, it used to be way more that WordPress was looked down upon by developers was looked down upon by the tech bro. Right. And that's really started to shift because now everyone can geek out on graphQL and Gatsby with heads and all that fun stuff. You know, like, and they can geek out on all these different, you know, different interpretations of different development stacks of what we have going on here. And so it's no longer just this like, Oh, that's just WordPress. That's just a content management system that doesn't even matter.
Jason Cosper: 25:02 Yeah. So as, as we kind of transition to you know, now that we're over a third of the web as Jonathan said we're on track to hit 40, 50%. At what point and you know, when WordPress becomes the, "the operating system of the web," I mean it sounds exciting, but then you start getting into this whole monoculture thing where you look at how Chrome is now, like everybody uses Chrome. So many people use Chrome and you know, I, I use Firefox and Safari almost to kind of just to be different just to, just to use something other than I would, I would hate for as much as I, I make a living off of WordPress and everything else, I'd hate for it to hit 80, 90%. I know that that's necessarily a target that they, they might want to hit someday. Right.
Jonathan Wold: 26:01 I think hosts matters so much because the descent was nature of WordPress means that there's room for for flavor, there's room for variety and difference. It's not trivial but, and this is also why things like governance matter, how, how are the, what's the future of the project and it looks like it's one thing today, but what about five years from now? And as as that grows, I feel like the ingredients are there for there to be a healthy like diverse ECOS ecosystem as a whole, which is made up of a lot of sub ecosystems. But it doesn't just happen. It requires people putting in the effort and thinking more longterm like where does this go versus the short term benefit that which for me in general is one reason why I'm more a fan of companies not going public then because once you do, there's a lot of benefits but there's also this now more short term quarterly,
Sé Reed: 26:55 Right? One step at a time. Thinking about the length of the whole, the project and where it could go and vision. It's more about like quick turnover with the moneys. Yup.
Jason Tucker: 27:09 Google. Google has an API dude, you can do blogger and you can become a blogger developer and, and do all that stuff. So don't worry about it. Man, you'll still have a job.
Jason Cosper: 27:18 Oh, I'll finish exactly where I started. I started on blogger.
Sé Reed: 27:24 All I'm going to say real quick, what I was saying about Audrey Middleton stock was that her talk is WordPress community and scale. And so like as the WordPress project gets bigger, WordPress community is getting bigger and that, you know, introduces all these additional people, the tech bros, you know, more beginners coming in like, and having to really be able to not just onboard people to the software, but onboard people into the community and have these set standards of, you know, what the code of conduct actually means and how to, how that's enforced. And that is exactly where all these things of governance come in in terms of what do we want our community and our ecosystem to look like. Do we want to just give it up to, you know, we're not w w none of us want this to just be like, Oh, it's just Automattic's thing.
Sé Reed: 28:17 It's never going to be that. So the, the beauty of WordPress is the fact that we all have that stake in it and we all have that stake in the community. And we have that ability to shape this, to shape the future of the web, to shape the future of WordPress. So the fact that there is this, you know, that 34.6% is not just wordpress.com, right? That is WordPress, the whole thing. And that, you know, if you took away, I don't know what the percentages are of wordpress.com versus WordPress, but if you took away the project, it wouldn't be the same thing. And like you're saying, hosts without GoDaddy's, you know, chunk a chunk of people, like it's not gonna, it's not the same thing. So I think we have so much more possibility as a community to be involved in this, in the shape of the web. Just one more quick plug for word camp, long beach. We also have an awesome talk right after Andrea Middleton about from DreamHost the vice president for communications someone's communications, but then is talking about the DreamHost you know, subpoena that they got and the implications of that is the implications on internet privacy and how WordPress's shaping that. And then we also have the implications of accessibility and how WordPress can shape that. And it's so exciting to think that we, even though we're not getting the money right, we don't get the, the $300 million, but it is also a vote of confidence in WordPress as a whole. And we have the ability to shape that. Like it can't be done without us like it. The community is not, WordPress is not WordPress without the community. So we have a responsibility and an opportunity to participate in this in a way that normal venture capital, the normal fund situation just does not exist. Like that's super exciting to me.
Jason Tucker: 30:14 And that's it. Folks. Thank you very much for coming and hanging out with us. Go over to wpwatercooler.com/subscribe or you could subscribe to this content. And all the other content that's happening over there. And also if you want to leave some feedback, do that. Go over to WPwatercooler.com/feedback. Talk to you all later. You have a good one.
Jason Tucker: 30:31 See Ya!