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User design and interaction (UX/UI) isn’t just a trendy thing to talk about. It affects how your website communicates to your audience. One of the things we forget, as business owners, is that we are not our own customers. We’re too educated. We know our websites because we built them. In this episode, Michelle Keefer joins Bridget and Jason to discuss how UX influences your marketing strategy. Communicate, test, tweak. Rinse and Repeat!

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About Michelle Keefer

Michelle is a life-long learner and a classically-trained marketer. She has a background in psychology and human behavior. With a more degrees than a black belt, she’s taken her knowledge and become an expert at building a marketing team from the ground up.

Her passion for people and data is well-paired and the fruit of which has benefited many clients and employers over the years. She likes to think of herself as the “MacGuyver of Marketing.”

“Strategic Marketing means using the tremendous amount of data, tools, and resources that are at our finger tips to ensure our growth strategies align with a balance of vision and customer needs. There is absolutely no reason why organizations in this day and age should be operating without a solid understanding of how to utilize business data, industry trends, and digital analytics in their every day decision making and strategic development.

I eat, sleep, and breathe marketing and trying to understand consumer behavior. I’m making big transitions in my life and am narrowing my scope to aim my skills directly at product research and development. My design thinking skills are pushing me beyond the comforts of “marketing” and I hope to make a bigger impact by being the product manager every marketer wish they had on their team.” Michelle Keefer

Be sure to follow her on Twitter and say hi.

Four Pillars of Marketing

Before we talk about user experience (UX), Michelle wanted us to be reminded of the four pillars of marketing. If we don’t get these right, UX isn’t relevant.

  1. Product
  2. Promotions
  3. Positioning
  4. Price

“But you know what the other thing is that I always find really funny that people forget about the four pillars of marketing: our products, promotions, positioning, and price. And so, if you’re a developer and you’re building a product, like you’re 25% of what marketing is — the product.” Michelle Keefer

What is User Experience (UX)?

Understanding who your customers are what their goals are and designing in a way that enables them to reach those goals is UX.

In order to design for the right experience, you need research. This includes both qualitative (anecdotes) and quantitative (actual facts) data.

“People think they can do UX without research; you’re designing in a bubble.” Michelle Keefer

How Do You Teach UX?

UX is just as important as your product. How the consumer experiences your landing page or creamer container will determine conversion. Using analogies helps quite a bit.

“So I, I show them by storytelling and by just making really simple metaphors and analogies so people understand things.” Michelle Keefer

How Do People Fix Bad UX?

Bad design is bad design. The only way to fix it is to stop thinking that you’re the customer. Get your grandma or neighbor or uncle to look at that landing page.

“Assumptions are the number one culprit when it comes to bad UX. Research is the answer.” Michelle Keefer

Michelle even suggests, rather than using something like Hotjar, to invite people (5-10) on a recorded zoom call. Give them the exact same prompts each time. This is a live usability test that will give you quantitative data. It’s free and easy.

Bonus: UX in Email Marketing

Here are some great tips from Michelle on Email Marketing UX.

  1. Only have on CTA per email. “They’re only going to choose one thing.” If you have more than one CTA, “you’re actively diluting your conversions,” she says.
  2. Blue and Orange are the colors people click on most. Don’t be so stuck on your brand colors.
  3. Segment your lists. Identify your audience “Don’t assume they will identify themselves. Spell it out.”

“And that’s what good UX is, is you guide them through the process. And so don’t be afraid to spell it out for your audience. If you’re this person, I want you to click this button for this reason. It is okay to be that direct. Because it helps them filter out the noise. They don’t have to make as many decisions. So now you’re not fighting, decision-making fatigue and things like that. And you’re more likely to get the right audience to where you want them to be.” Michelle Keefer

Tool or Tip of the Week

This Tool or Tip of the week is brought to you by Fat Dog Creatives. If you’re a service-based business serious about growth, Rhonda Negard is your rebranding and web design thinker, a strategic design specialist. Check out her website at

Michelle recommends Zapier. It rhymes with happier. That’s their slogan.
Zapier makes you happier.”

Jason recommends CalZones app for your mobile device and smart watch.

Bridget recommends “Mediations of John Muir;” read something out of the area that you work/write.

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Editor’s Note: Transcriptions of episodes are created with a mix of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain some grammatical errors or slight deviations from the audio.

Jason Tucker (00:00:00):
And this is WPwatercooler, WP, Blab, the WordPress marketing show. Go take a look at our show notes. Just so you know, we do put show notes out on our website over at So feel free to go take a look at that. I, I’m, I, I want to tell you something real fast here, just preemptively. I just want to jump in here and let you know that this show’s not just a podcast. If you’re listening to it as a podcast, it’s not just a video. If you’re just listening to it as video, it’s, it’s both of them. And you can subscribe to us. If you go onto our website at, that’s where you can learn how to subscribe to this content. So today’s topic we’re gonna be discussing a UX is more than just a trendy design movement.

Jason Tucker (00:00:48):
It’s marketing. I didn’t know what it was marketing, so I’m going to learn something today, but I don’t know a whole lot about marketing anyhow, and I, I really, I’m really good at faking it. So, yeah, Bridget, Bridget, see Bridget always does that. She goes, what do you mean you don’t know about marketing? So I think a lot of folks feel that they, they either do or don’t know much about marketing and you have a lot of people that are designers or developers that just, and then that’s kind of where I’m at. So I’m, I’m really excited about this episode, so I know it’s a bit of a different format, but I just want to let you know that this is going to be a cool show. So Bridget, tell us a bit about yourself.

Bridget Willard (00:01:22):
Hey All. I’m a self-taught marketer and I use my intuition, which is normally right. So what are you paying attention to? Because I pay attention to human behavior. I think I started and I was like, wow, Bridget. No, my clients sent me this video anyway and he was asking his son, you know, what are the H words? Oh, I found a hat. It said Hawaii hat, Hawaii hair head. And the dad said, those are really good H words. And the kid said, yup, I couldn’t stop laughing because like we’re all taught humility. But this four year old is like on it. Well the, the thing is that I have a background in psychology and and I was a teacher by degree, so I’m a marketer by instinct. That’s, that used to be my tagline. So what I do is I’m in there, I’m doing the boots on the ground and I test things and I see what works. And so the intuition is what kind of forms my strategy because a lot of people have been coming to me lately saying, can you do keyword research? And I send them elsewhere. I’m not a technical SEO person. I write from intuition, which is normally right. And as that little kid said, yep.

Jason Tucker (00:02:57):
So where do people find you, Bridget?

Bridget Willard (00:02:59):
They can find me at I’m super excited. My site’s being redesigned again. I am like one of those hair models. I was a hair model when I was a kid. And if you’re willing for some of you to experiment, you can get a new design.

Jason Tucker (00:03:13):
That’s awesome. I’m Jason Tucker you can find me over at @JasonTucker on Twitter. My website is I do this show as was another show called the WPwatercooler, which is also the name of the network. And today we’re going to be talking, we’re literally gonna be doing a tour tip of the week. That is the entire episode. So it’s going to be kind of fun. We got him a little bit of a crossover episode. It’s only been like a hundred, whatever episodes, but yeah, there’ll be, it’ll be super fun. Before we introduce our guests, I do want to introduce our sponsor and I want to let you know, you can go over to server press makers, a desktop server. They make local WordPress development easy. If you haven’t built a website locally or you are scared to go and build ’em a website and not know how to do it with a like a web host, you may want to download server press so you can actually download it and install it and use it for free for three websites. And then after that you’ve built the website, looks super pretty and everything’s working good. Now you can go and get web hosting and pay for them. And then you could use their other tool that they have, which is called WP site sync to take that content and send it up to the website and everything’s done and it’s really awesome. So you can go learn more about that over So Michelle, tell us a little about yourself.

Michelle Keefer (00:04:29):
Hello. so I’m kind of the opposite of Bridgette. I deliberately in classically trained marketing professional, although my background is also in psychology and I’ve often said that the best marketer, Palm fronds psychology, because we’re naturally and intuitively paying attention to human behavior. And ultimately that’s what marketing is, is trying to figure out how to get the right message in front of the right audience. So I’ve been doing marketing for a long time. I’m really, I am one of the weird people. I got my degree, my first degree in advertising and psychology. I went straight into marketing and then I got another degree, a M design resear. I got a master’s in design research and focused in market research as well, innovative studies. And then I got an MBA specializing in market strategic market development. So over the years I’ve edgy, I’ve educated myself formally in marketing and also by way of fire. I’ve kind of referred to myself as like the MacGuyver of marketing.

Michelle Keefer (00:05:33):
I never wanted to do with the way that all of my co when I graduated, all my cohorts like went into these agencies and they sat in their cubicles and they entered into whatever silo that they, they’re going to be an email marketer, they’re going to be an SEO marketer. And I was like, I want to be an exec, I want to be a COO, so I need to know how to do all of it. And so I worked, my first job was for a medical clinic and they did physical therapy and worker’s comp and family medicine. So they had all these different moving parts and I worked for $10 an hour. So I could be their marketing department and come in and build a marketing department and everyone was making way more money than me at these much larger companies. But I, the experiences that I got by being able to take the whole soup to nuts all by myself was extraordinary to me and that was worth more than the how much I was making.

Michelle Keefer (00:06:27):
And I just kind of continued down that path. And now, you know, 15 years later, I’m an expert in coming into companies that have not had marketing before and building a marketing department because I understand everything from market research and branding and positioning through designing ads, designing content to measure, knowing how to measure and analyze the data and use that to strategically inform what it is you’re putting out and making sure it’s working. So yeah, I’ve definitely been doing this for awhile. And I love it and I got really lucky when I was in my undergraduate. I changed my major five different times to all these different things. And the first time I took a marketing class I was like, found it. We’re here. This is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. And so I am now.

Bridget Willard (00:07:14):
I love it. You’re so good. And it’s funny because that’s, we say that marketing marketers are better if they’re come from psychology, but advertising started with Dr. Watson. A psychologist. Yeah, absolutely. Selling. But if you understand what motivates people and why people do what they do and what’s really driving why they’re interested or not interested, then you know how to form messaging and branding and everything and put it in front of them where they want it. And to your point earlier, Jason, when you were saying you’re not, you’re not a marketer and my career, what I found is that marketing tends to be kind of this catchall place where people go into sales or customer support or design or development, and they trickle into marketing because there are people persons, right? They know how people, and the more companies I work with and more comfortable I consult with. What I realize is there a lot of people that are doing marketing every single day, but they don’t know that’s what they’re doing. They don’t call it that. They use a different language and what they are, you’re doing marketing and even market research and it’s more prevalent than people realize how much we’re actually using these concepts.

Jason Tucker (00:08:28):
Oh yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m marketing by necessity. So in order to make this whole thing work, I leverage everything that I can on Bridget, and then all the things that Bridget doesn’t want to do, I have to do that by necessity. So I’m like, okay, I got to get this figured out. How do I build a thing? How do I make a thing? How do I make it look right? How do I make it so when people click on it, it does something. And so yeah, by necessity, when I say I’m not a marketer, I’m just not a marketer. Like that’s on my, that’s not on my, yeah, I’m an it guy.

Michelle Keefer (00:09:00):
But you know what the other thing is that I always find really funny that people forget about like the four pillars of marketing, our products, promotions, positioning and price. And so if you’re a developer and you’re building a product, like you’re three, 5% of what marketing is, is, is the product. Right. and it’s, and it’s even funny for me professionally because I’ve been, you know, director of marketing like senior marketing positions and whenever I go and look at like a product role, they’re like, Oh, you don’t know product, you’ve never done product. It’s like, you know, a product is, cause if you didn’t know that, it’s actually very relevant to marketing. So

Jason Tucker (00:09:40):
Yeah, it’s like when you’re, when you write something in your resume and you write that, you know how to use Microsoft word, and then they go, he knows Microsoft word and then they, they try to hire you as somebody who uses Microsoft word. I’m like, Microsoft board is like a tool in this toolbox and is literally the smallest tool in the toolbox. And that’s it. You know? So, yeah. That’s so funny.

Bridget Willard (00:10:02):
Jason. I’ll never forget being at Robert staff recruited for back when I was doing accounts receivable collections. And they were like you said you had advanced Excel skills because I had taken these classes. My, my, the company bought a package of classes and we all went to the stone class. Okay. And I go, well, yeah, I took this class. He goes, but can you do a pivot table? I can’t do I have to do it right now?

Bridget Willard (00:10:34):
And I’ll vlookup while I’m doing it. I don’t know. We don’t use pivot tables. We have a proprietary accounting system made it pro or whatever. And he goes, but you can’t do it right now. You’re not advanced. I go, fine. Put it on getting intermediate. So like what these skills, you know, we’re always trying to say that we have them and we, and we do a lot of on the job training and that’s why take the, that Michelle is such a great guest for this topic because I don’t have UX you know, certifications. I just know if your website sucks and I can’t figure out where to find something, I’m out. So can you like define UX just to start with?

Michelle Keefer (00:11:23):
So, and my, when I did my masters in design research, we literally had a whole semester of theory where that is what we argued about, what the definitions of these types of things are. What is design research, what is user experience design, what is user experience research? And there are so many different school of thought to it. But ultimately what it is is, and it really builds on what you guys talked about last week on empathy. Understanding who your customer is, what their goals are, not what your goal but what their goal is and designing to allow them to meet that goal. And so their goal is to buy your product. Then you want to design a product transaction process that allows them to do that easily without having to, for them to have to go outside of their natural intuitive way of wanting to do something, which is why it’s so fundamentally linked with research.

Michelle Keefer (00:12:19):
And people think that they can do UX without doing research, then you’re, you’re designing in a bubble and you don’t know if it’s actually going to be what they want, what your user wants, what we ourselves as a business owner, as a marketer, as a designer, thinks that they should want or want because of how we think about things. So really the most simplified definition I can think of is understanding a user and building and designing for them to be able to meet their goals. It’s definitely not a textbook definition. That’s my experience of what the most simplified definition is. So,

Jason Tucker (00:12:55):
And UX is both, both same and different between like physical objects versus the website versus a mobile app versus you still, there were either buttons or inputs or any of those kinds of pieces, but they are a bit different. So how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you show that to someone who has no idea, you know, what you’re building when you’re trying to get through to, to no end result.

Michelle Keefer (00:13:24):
So I, I show them by storytelling and by just making really simple metaphors. And analogies so people don’t understand things. So back in the eighties before you act was a thing. It was called products design and that was it. Yeah. To understand what the product was. And so it’s, it’s come with all these different names and that’s why you asked the, some been some trendy thing that all of a sudden all these executives are like, Oh, we need UX teams. But they don’t know what department to put them under. Do they put them with development? Do they put them with marketing and do they put them with design and they don’t have the infrastructure because they don’t intrinsically understand what the goal of a UX department or UX staffer is. And it’s changing. Finally, people in the last probably three years, especially, people are finally starting to understand how to, you know, how to think about it.

Michelle Keefer (00:14:16):
But it’s just through, you know, these types of conversations and making people realize that it’s actually very, very simple. And this whole UX UI craze is just a repackaging of things that we’ve been doing for as long as products have existed. You know, my, one of my professors he used to build toys for Mattel and so they would, you know, mock it up and kind of put something together and then let the kids come in and play with it and see what broke, what they liked, what they played with, what they did and play with, and then go back in and fix the product. That was UX that was designed, that was designed thinking before any of those buzzwords called it that. And so I think the biggest key here is to really just simplify it and demystify it that it isn’t some new trendy craze in digital design, but it’s just applying that same physical product design into the digital realm where we’re understanding, you know, cause someone’s not going to handle your website, right? They’re going to click buttons, they’re going to mouse over, things are going to scroll, they’re going to click here and they’re going to click there. How far are they willing to scroll before they click, how many clicks do they have in them before they say, you know, FTS and move on with their life. And that’s again where the research comes from that informs what that UX should look like.

Bridget Willard (00:15:42):
Yeah, I mean it does. Trial design is a good teacher and they have a hole that I highly recommend self-taught watching abstract art of design by on Netflix. It has two seasons, talks to him, all these different industries. But I’m telling you there is many a morning when I use my coffee mate actually, like I actually bought the coffee mate little container and then I would buy the generic because the coffee mate creamer the powder, it’s the only one with a snap back. You know how like this naps crack because that’s the most annoying thing is when you’re pouring something and the lid keeps flicking like this and then it’s flicking all over the place and it’s stopping and all this stuff. And I like in my brain, I think I wonder who that guy is and I wonder what his Thanksgivings are like.

Bridget Willard (00:16:43):
Like do they go, Hey Bob, what have you done lately? Well, I’ve invented this snapback and they’re like, that’s all you did. And then I think about the millions of people like me who just are in love with, I would love to shake that guy’s hand. And yes, I still believe in the handshake. There’s a whole episode on the Wilkins show yesterday on ESPN But like that’s what I’m saying is like that there are things that people do that you wonder why has it this always been a thing and like the genius of it, you know, so when we’re touching stuff, it maybe feels more obvious. But Michelle, how can we bring that to website design? What, what can we, how can we test that?

Michelle Keefer (00:17:38):
So it’s, it ultimately all still comes back from experience. You telling a story about your experience making coffee and whether or not the lid facing a certain way, how that helps you and improves your experiment experience is something tangible that we can all immediately be like, Oh, okay, I get that. And now you say, okay, now I’m pretend that lid is your call to action button. Where is it? Is it jamming up? Is it in their way? Are they able to press it when they, when they’re ready to press it, do they have to go find it? Do they know there is a call to action button or there do, are you informing them and designing an experience for them where they consume one step after the next? Or are you just being like, here’s all of our stuff and there’s a bunch of pages and here’s the navigation and we want you to do these three specific things, but good luck figuring that out.

Michelle Keefer (00:18:26):
Or is it, hello, welcome to my website, here’s your creamer and here’s your cap and see how it opens up and Oh, how lovely. Now you have cream coffee by here now. Right? Like it’s just the way you think about it. And so that’s why Jason’s here point, the best way to get people thinking about UX is getting them to understand that every time we have an experience with a product in a physical space, that same type of thinking needs to be applied to the digital space now, especially when we’re all blocked to the internet as basically our only form of engagement. You know, there’s so many choices and so how are you going to stand out over somebody else? It’s because of your experience. The experience that you’re offering within your website is going to, you know, be a positive one. It’s going to help your user reach their goal and hopefully your goal and their goal is aligned and then people make money and are successful and that that’s kind of the point of it.

Michelle Keefer (00:19:23):
All right.

Bridget Willard (00:19:25):
When it comes to experience though that that’s anecdotal, is that less important than like Hotjar mapping is not,

Michelle Keefer (00:19:33):
it’s not in a go to at odds. The critical piece of it that often gets overlooked and hotjar mapping is a really great tool because it allows you to kind of take a bird’s eye view of the experience of what they’re having. You can see the heat maps and you know, if we had a hundred people on our website, the majority of them, you know, hang out on this part of the website. So we need to make sure our most critical information and call to actions are there and no one’s around this side of the website. How can we make it more valuable or do we just need to trim it? Is it that important at all? But what I really like for Hotjar and it’s time consuming is whenever you actually sit and watch the live recordings, cause you can see how, you know, it’s so frustrating, but it’s really informative.

Michelle Keefer (00:20:19):
And if you want to take that even a further further step, you know, get five people on a call like that on a zoom call or a video call or whatever and say and record it and just say go to the website and give them little prompts and navigate to this product. And then don’t say anything else. Don’t help them and see where, how they navigate to that product. Ask them, you know, and you know, where are you able to find it quickly? What did you like about that? What did you not like that, okay, now navigate to last week’s blog and just kind of watch them and then you, and then you get to see it for yourself and tell them directly what they’re doing. Because when you’re watching a Hotjar recording, they’re doing whatever they were doing anyway. So at least so much space for assuming of what they’re trying to accomplish versus doing a live usability test. You can, you know, have that immediate feedback and understand what they’re doing. But then also if you do, yeah, five 10 15 people do the same usability test and you’ve given them all the exact same prompts. Now you have quantitative data

Bridget Willard (00:21:33):
But it’s probably less expensive too. It’s way less expensive. Are you recording just their screen or you recording their face screen? Just their screen. Oh okay. Cause I’d be like, cause my face would be like, and my voice would be like where’s the,

Michelle Keefer (00:21:52):
So that is qualitative data, right? More perception of it and you’re assigning meaning to it versus you know, and that’s the big difference between qualitative and quantitative data. The quantitative data has its meaning innately and what it is qualitative data, your assigning that meaning to it and they’re both really useful and it’s really hard to, you know, some people are really good at quantitative and they can’t think outside of the box of numbers. And other people are very qualitative and you ask them to build a pivot table in a spreadsheet and they’re like, please don’t, don’t make me, let’s just draw something with sticky notes instead. Right? But you know, I like at word counts and stuff whenever I meet these plugin developers and they, you know, they’ve got this really great idea and they built this plugin because it solves this very specific problem that they had.

Michelle Keefer (00:22:43):
So surely other people have this problem. And so they’ve built this plugin and now they want everyone to use the plugin. But the thing is, is you built it based on how you would solve your problem. Even though we all want that same problem solved, that doesn’t necessarily mean we would all go about it the same way. So while you’re plugging might seem very intuitive. So somebody else that might not, it might be a little clunky and you’re blind to that because to you it just makes perfect sense. And so I would really strongly encourage usability testing for those types of things. And the other really great thing about usability, sorry, I’ll stop with my word moment. Just,

Bridget Willard (00:23:20):
No, no. I mean, you’re reminding me of when I first started being on this show with Jason and writing about plugins back in 2015 because I just like, Jason is like, you’re a marketer. I do WordPress. Let’s just have a show. I’m like, I don’t know anything about WordPress. He goes, that’s why I want you on it. And wordimpressed, which is now in was like, we want you to install

Bridget Willard (00:23:46):
Plugins and then run it by him. Like, I think you got the wrong person. And I remember the biggest problem for me was when a plugin had an upgrade or was premium only and you’re in your dashboard where the plugins are and, and then all of a sudden you’re like, well, where is it? And I remember distinctly emailing Adam with poo plugins saying, where’s, where’s the plugin? I bought it. I put the license code in it. I didn’t know I had to download a whole nother thing. And not only that, I mean I was a secretary, I’m used to, I’m used to zip files. Just kind of plug and play. It’s got everything. Zip files are supposed to expand, they’re supposed to and then use the files aside there. No, in WordPress you upload the zip file. I was amazingly frustrated by that and a lot of us who build plugins work on the freemium model because we want that marketing love from being on but then when people buy the premium plugin, it doesn’t include the free part.

Bridget Willard (00:25:08):
That was always a thing with me that I would add that I would talk with the guys that give like, well if they buy the bundle is that one giant zip file and then they have core and everything in it and all they had to do is go like that. No, they have to download it from dot or, and then they get a bunch of different files with a bunch of different license keys that all have to be installed separately. And I was like, we’re marking the church secretaries, they’re not going to be able to do that. Well, and that leads it. And that’s a really good thing too that I was, you know, understanding who your audience is. If you’re putting, if you’re following a freemium model and you’re in the dot word the lab, you have to understand that the people who are consuming your product oftentimes will not have the same skill set that you do to, you know, to do these things.

Michelle Keefer (00:25:55):
Again, why usability testing is important. You don’t have to, you know, for, if we want to run a usability test, we don’t have to get other technical or I need a marketer, you know, you don’t have to like go get your grandma, get your cousin, get people who have absolutely no idea or have no technical proficiency and let them do your usability tests. It costs nothing. It’s super and they’re, you know them. So they’re more likely to, you know, open up and really talk to you and it’ll help you solve so many problems proactively because they’ll help you fill those blind spots. Because like you’re saying budget, they just assumed that that’s how everyone knew how to work because that’s how blood, right? But again, that’s, that’s why you access so important is because we’re not designing things for ourselves. We’re designing things to solve problems for other people. And if we don’t understand who those other people are, if we don’t understand what their pain points are, if we don’t understand how they’re going to use it and what the various use cases might be, then it doesn’t matter how great of a problem solver, your product or solution is, it’s not going to solve problems for anybody and it’s likely going to cause you a whole bunch of new problems, right? Because you’re not thinking about it from this external consumer driven, empathetic perspective, support tickets,

Jason Tucker (00:27:18):
Support tickets, and you have that inherited inherited mechanics of, of UX where it’s like, I know if I click on this thing that looks like a button, it’s going to act like a button. And I hate when people try to build not just a better mouse trap, but a more complicated mouse trap. And you end up with this thing where it’s like the button has to be clicked and you have to move your mouse across it and then you have to move the mouse down and then you have to hold down three keys and you’re like, this is supposed to be a call to action. Why did you turn this thing into something crazy like turned it into, you know, just build it the way it’s supposed to be built. I’ve seen plenty of those. Yeah, it makes me so sad.

Michelle Keefer (00:28:00):
There’s a few different traps there because yes, it should be simple. If it’s, it looks like a button, it should be a button. But what happens if people start to over-design, right? Cause no one’s going to click a button and we don’t want 200 clicks if only one person or two persons going to actually follow through. So maybe if we make the transaction process a little bit more complicated than only the people that go through it are people who are really interested in what we’re offering. So they have a higher propensity to buy. And so by adding these extra steps, we’re filtering out all the people we don’t want. But again, that’s based on assumptions that your users willing to go through the extra steps and and so, or if it’s a terrible way to qualify a lead.

Jason Tucker (00:28:46):
Yeah, frustrate the customer. It’s almost like if they had a captcha, the captcha said, what kind of roof is this?

Bridget Willard (00:28:55):
It’s a bur, dammit.

Michelle Keefer (00:29:02):
And we don’t want you as our customer anyway.

Jason Tucker (00:29:06):
How does, how is WordPress spelled? Is it all lower case? Is it all upper case or do we camel case it?

Michelle Keefer (00:29:12):
I w I was at a word camp in Phoenix and they had like this trivia game and one of the questions was like, which is correct and it was WordPress spelled and like all the different wheels and it was like, only like less than 50%. I think. I remember it being like 46% of people got it right. And I’m like, what the heck is wrong here? This is like a brand champion community advocacy space and we don’t know how to do it right here. If we can’t get it right here. What makes you think you’re going get it right outside of this community?

Michelle Keefer (00:29:44):
Well, my mind. But yeah, so people, you know, I think assumptions are the number one culprit when it comes to bad UX. And the way you beat assumptions is through research. And research doesn’t have to be this big scary thing. Most of us are doing research every day. If your observations are research asking questions, our research surveys, surveys are super simple to put together. Most of the time there’s lots of, I mean, there’s a way to do it right? To get the right, cause people fall into a trap. They’re like, I want to learn about this. So I build a survey and I get all these answers with, but I didn’t learn this. I learned these other things. And it’s like, Oh, well did your answers lead to this? Or, you know, so there’s still some right to go into surveys, but but it’s not, you know you know, people think, especially in small businesses and startups and solo preneurs that market research is this luxury division of business development that they don’t get until they grow to that larger enterprise level. And it just couldn’t be farther from the truth. You’re not ever gonna get to that large or enterprise level if you’re not doing research at the front end of it.

Jason Tucker (00:31:03):
Can I tell you about something that I would have loved?

Jason Tucker (00:31:09):
Perfect. So this is what I would have loved. I told Bridget, I’ll get a build it ad. So here’s an ad about it ad. So if you’re, if you’re in this space and you’re wanting to to attract customers and be able to tell people about the products and services that you’re doing, your ad could have been down here and I have to do is go to our website over a day, por Corp com slash. Sponsor. And when I say down here, it’s at the bottom of the screen if you’re, if you’re watching this video, but if you’re listening to this video, I do something even more than that. I actually make the entire ad show up on the screen. If you’re if you’re listening to us as a podcast and there’s a little button that you can click on and everything that gets you to the spot to be able to do it.

Jason Tucker (00:31:51):
We also include this stuff in our show notes. So if you go to our website or wr Corp com, you could have scrolled down and looked at the show notes for each of the shows that we have. And you’d be able to see that there’s actually a, a button there that you can click on or you know, a link that you can click on for the ad. So we do these types of ads just to, to also the, you know, the fund to us and the fund, the project that we’re doing here, but also it helps it so that your your, your products and services get put out into the wild here and people are able to look at it and see it and we talk about our experiences with it. So if you have a product like that that you want to have us advertise, we’d be more than happy to advertise it for you. And our rates are great and feel free to go take a look at all the information that you want to kind of figure out if this is something for you over at [inaudible] dot com slash ones

Jason Tucker (00:32:40):
Missed opportunity, right?

Michelle Keefer (00:32:43):
Right. Like we have all these solo preneurs and entrepreneurs. If you are the products and you are just putting yourself out there, you be your own brand and promote yourself. That’s something that I never understood. Why more people don’t buy advertising dollars to be like, check me out. I exist.

Jason Tucker (00:33:01):
Especially now when all these work, like the word camps or be canceled. So people could have spent $5,000 on a booth or how many ad spots could you get that will actually,

Michelle Keefer (00:33:16):
That’s so many podcasts, WordPress podcast that you can get out. So many.

Bridget Willard (00:33:22):
I mean, the map report had his podcast thing out ed before I even could retweet it here. I haven’t filled up like, you know, it’s a really good way to, to be to elevate your brand awareness. And speaking of market research, Michelle, this is why I love Twitter so much because everybody tells you what they think, you know? And they’re, they’re constantly, and when the support people don’t respond fast enough, they all go to Twitter and so, you know, Oh, they’re, they’re having a trouble with this and they’re having trouble with that and they don’t like this and they don’t like that. They tell you everything about themselves. Like Twitter is those little kids playing with the toys. If you listen, you know everything about these people, you know, who is bombed at Bernie Sanders dropped out and who is happy that Bernie Sanders is stopped out of the race and who is wearing a mask and who changed her profile picture and who has a kid with a chronic illness? We know everything. We know when your dog dies, we know when you have bad dreams. I started tweeting out my bad dreams. Like in this episode today I just did in this episode of Bridget’s crazy dreams or whatever. You know, like we like that, that could be an opportunity too because if you hear that customer saying blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, wouldn’t that be a good person to reach out to Michelle to invite for that?

Michelle Keefer (00:34:55):
That’s it. Yeah. Anytime you can find someone where they’re already kind of elevated or heat it up towards something, you know, that’s a great time to poke the bear. In people. I’m not a pot stir by nature. I’m not one of these, like I w I’m not, you know, a drama chaser or anything like that. But when it comes to getting research or getting insight, people are more likely to vent when they’re upset than when they’re happy. And that’s when you get, and that’s when, because if you ask someone who’s in a good mood, like, Oh, what did you think of this? Like, Oh, it’s okay. I didn’t really like it too much. And then that’s really all they’re going to say. But if you ask them when they’re mad, even if they’re mad about something else and they’re already on it, just them in this direction, they’re going to give you so much more because they just need to get it out of them. And that’s why recording is really important because you’re not going to hear it all at once. But yeah, if you get somebody, you know, that’s all riled up about something and you can redirect them to giving you some clean insight, then that’s a, it’s a good way to do it. And Twitter’s absolutely, you know, great fun hunting lands hunky, I guess, which are, find that kind of stuff. Almost had a hunting farm, but I don’t think you had one farm.

Bridget Willard (00:36:11):
Maybe, I guess if you,

Bridget Willard (00:36:14):
It’s more like a, it’s more like a workflow for hunting.

Jason Tucker (00:36:25):
Could we, could we talk a little bit about UX in email?

Bridget Willard (00:36:29):
Oh, please I wanna hear this.

Jason Tucker (00:36:33):
I, I’ve had so many different different requests at my work. I work at a church and I do all of our management of our website stuff and all of that. And most of the time I just kind of build something and I go, okay, here’s the template that I built. Feel free to go do what you want with it. And really it’s like, do what you want with it. And I’ll come back like six months later and I’m like, Whoa. Like but everything’s changed in here. What’s going on? And I, I’ve seen where like, you know, they’ll put a photo as the button to click on for the call to action, but they don’t indicate that that’s a call to action and emails emails a tricky beast because it’s, it’s, it’s not always the same in everybody’s inbox. It’s not always the same. And any of that stuff. What type of UX stuff have you discussed regarding email to your clients and what are some of like the basic things that people should be looking at?

Michelle Keefer (00:37:29):
So for me, when it comes to email marketing, the number one rule is simple. You should have one. And this, that really, the only exception of this is newsletters. But newsletters are informative and they usually don’t come with a lot of call to action. But if you have a goal for a call to action and that should basically be the only thing in your email, you don’t want to storytell and then have a call to action and then, Oh by the way, do this too. And Hey, can she tweet us out? And if you haven’t liked our page yet, do that too because they’re only going to choose one thing. And so the more call to actions and the more different themes or modules or whatever you stack up inside of an email, you’re actively diluting your, your conversion rate of getting any of that done.

Michelle Keefer (00:38:16):
And so simple as best buttons need to be a button. The call to action on the button. You can get cute with it. If you don’t want to just say like click here to learn more. Like I get it. We don’t want to say it. We don’t, we get tired of the same thing over and over and over again, especially as designers. And so we have this natural itch to spice it up and to, you know, do something cute and creative and try to go outside of the box a little bit. But you have to reel yourself back in because you’re doing that because of your need because you are burnt out creating these emails, not because you’ve had any type of feedback or insight or anything else that’s coming back. So you have to try to fight those urges and only make changes if the data tells you to make a change.

Michelle Keefer (00:39:02):
Otherwise keep it very, very simple. A blue and orange are the most clickable colored buttons out there pretty consistently. Even on, on websites, email, social, kind of across the board. Blue and orange, right here are your button colors that are most clicked on. But the text just has to be, you know, simple. And if it makes sense to you, especially like I worked with a brand that liked to use a lot of puns and so like the call to actions or sometimes puns and if you get it then it was funny and clever and like, okay, but not everybody’s in to puns, you know, unless you have a, unless your brand is in the puns because your audience is in the puns, man, you know, you might want to like have someone else who’s not you. Again, it doesn’t always have to be some expert to review your content.

Michelle Keefer (00:39:54):
I think that’s another trap we all fall into is that, Oh, I don’t have a marketing expert to review what I’m doing. My email before I send it out. Your little brother who doesn’t know anything about anything can review your email and tell you if your button makes sense because he’s probably more like your user that’s reading the email than the marketing expert who’s going to come take a look at it. So keep it simple. Don’t be afraid to ask for an additional set of eyes outside of the scope of your expertise. And just keep it clean

Jason Tucker (00:40:25):
And email’s a good, a good place to do AB testing because you’re not having to build a whole entirely different website for that test. You can be like, okay, so we’re using black buttons today. Let’s see what happens. Okay, but this one we’re going to do an orange button and then you’re going to, you know that based on what you’re saying, maybe that orange button is probably going to get more clicks than the black button. What about if you have a bunch of options on that email that you want them to go through and do? Is it getting them out of that email and getting them to a website? Is what’s going to help you the most? Or how do you transition that?

Michelle Keefer (00:41:03):
Thats where segmentation really comes into play. Who you know, who do you want to, because a lot of brands have, you know, lots of moving parts, lots of different products that are suited for different people. And so you want to identify the audience on their behalf. So are you a marketing expert that wants to know X click here? Are you a design buff that’s having trouble with this? Click here. And so if you are going to have, if you do have a multi audience channel or you do have a multi, you know a multi lots of call to actions that you need to take, don’t assume that they’re going to be able to identify themselves in what your options are. Even with really great story, with storytelling where they resonate with it and they get it, they still might not understand that that button is for them.

Michelle Keefer (00:41:49):
And so you have to spell it out and it’s not gonna. And some people feel like, you know, well I don’t want to be condescending to my audience or I don’t want to talk to them like they’re dumb. But you are. They’re going to appreciate it because you may, because anytime you can do the thinking for them and just spoon feed them along, then you’re guiding them through. And that’s what good UX is, is you guide them through the process. And so don’t be afraid to spell it out for your audience. If you’re this person, I want you to click this button for this reason, it is okay to be that direct. Because it’s gonna, it helps them filter out the noise. They don’t have to make as many decisions. So now you’re not fighting, you know, decision-making fatigue and things like that and you’re more likely to get the right audience to where you want them to be.

Michelle Keefer (00:42:35):
So just segment your audience and think about which users need to go here, which users need to go there. And if you have a user that you want to do all three things, then tell them this is step one, step two, step three, and, and, and build them and show them what that path is. Set the expectation, remove any additional thinking on their part and just kind of spoonfeed it to them. And don’t be afraid that you’re not gonna offend or come across as condescending or any or belittling or anything like that. It’s, it’ll be appreciated more often than not.

Jason Tucker (00:43:06):
That’s cool. Yeah, the options sometimes kill everything. Right.

Bridget Willard (00:43:10):
That makes a lot of sense. I mean I feel like we need to have you on for a couple other topics. One of them, because the thing is like I, I always ask people, well what do you do? You know, cause everybody wants to use hashtags on Facebook. And then I’ll ask them, how many of you use hashtags on Facebook? I did this at WordCamp LA, my beginner class, and they as 90% raise their hand.

Jason Tucker (00:43:37):
or copy the copy from Instagram. And then I put it in the Facebook.

Bridget Willard (00:43:41):
and then I asked them, how many of you click on hashtags on Facebook? One person out of 75 people. One person. So the thing is that I, that empathy of trying to put yourself into those, those shoes is really important. And I like to me, I’m, a lot of times I will fill out surveys because I’m a marketer and I get that person.

Bridget Willard (00:44:08):
But if it keeps going on and on and on, I’m out. I go, I don’t have time for this crap. Yeah, I liked your product. I’m out. Like I just, you know, I just can’t deal with this right now. It’s too much, but, but you’re right, Michelle, when it’s easy, then if, then it’s, it’s so much, this is the whole process is completely different because you’re just like, I want to help you. And you kind of gave me that hospitality to make it easy for me to help you instead of one to 10 on 20 things per page and five pages. Is that, yeah.

Michelle Keefer (00:44:49):

Michelle Keefer (00:44:50):
Help me help you. So the better you understand who you’re talking to, the better you know how to spoonfeed them, the experience.

Bridget Willard (00:44:59):
Wow. Yeah, that was an amazing, wow. Definitely going to have to have you on again. But tool or tip of the week, this week’s tool or tip of the week is brought to you by fat dog creatives.

Bridget Willard (00:45:15):
If you’re a service based business, serious about growth. Rhonda Nygaard is your rebranding and web design thinker, a strategic design specialist. Check out her website at So my tool or tip of the week is this book. The links in the chat Jason’s called meditations of John Muir nature’s temple. I, I got it when I was at the Sequoia national forest back in October and I was like, Oh, it’s 12 bucks. And it’s like, I don’t know, less than 150 pages. That’s always good for me as a somebody who’s constantly writing marketing copy, it gets a little overwhelming to only be reading marketing copy. I’m on the internet reading marketing, copy it to tweet out to other people to read marketing copy and I feel like I’m trapped in an infomercial. So like I’ll give you an example. They’re very short. I like to read this one a day while I’m eating my oatmeal or Greek yogurt or something.

Bridget Willard (00:46:21):
But his writing is so ridiculous. Like, okay, read this for yourself, but don’t ever put this on a website. This is not the way you write for the internet. The water also in his Rocky home amid foaming waters. How romantic and beautiful was the life of this brave little singer on the wild mountain streams building his round, bossy nest of Moss by the side of a rapid or fall where it is sprinkled and kept fresh and creed by the spray. No wonder he sings well since the air about him, his music, every breath he draws is part of a song and he gets his first music lessons before he’s born for the eggs, vibrate and time with the tones of the waterfalls. Bird and stream are inseparable. Songful and wild, gentle and strong. The bird ever in danger in the midst of the streams. Mad world pearls, yet seemingly immoral. And so I might go on writing words, words, words, but to what purpose? Go see him and love him and through him as through a window. Look into nature’s warm heart. I love

Bridget Willard (00:47:30):
That, right? Like you’ve reading something and it makes you go, Whoa. Yeah. And then my favorite part is a marketer. I could go on running words, words, more words, but to what purpose, which completely ties into today’s subject. You’re like, we’re writing for a goal. So if you’re just going on and on and on and on and your copy or your blog posts just up stop, drop and roll, edit that. That’s the lesson from John Muir.

Michelle Keefer (00:48:04):
My few things I want to say to that. So first of all, I agree with you as a, I’m, I’m immersed in marketing all of the time and so I am not one of those markets. I’m, you know, I have all these like CEO books that you’re supposed to read. Like all of the books that I read are like self-work and eternal work, interpersonal relationships, because that is one of me being better understanding myself.

Michelle Keefer (00:48:28):
I can remove my biases from the things that I’m working on and you know, so I kind of take that whole other direction. And the other thing is I was at a concert one time and someone handed me a business card and it said, stop talking. And on the other side it said, you’re welcome. And I was just like, Oh yes, yes. It’s so brilliant. It’s such a great concept. Just shut up y’all, look around, pay attention. And responds like, Oh, so.

Michelle Keefer (00:48:59):
do you have a tool or tip for us? Michelle?

Michelle Keefer (00:49:01):
Yes. So my tool that I love, that I wanted to talk about today was Zapier. It is a automated connector to all things. So I’m not very technologically proficient. I can build a WordPress site and I can, you know, go through and edit some HTML if I need to.

Michelle Keefer (00:49:20):
But I’m not going to be able to connect an API to another API to make my website do what I want it to do. And that, so Zapier’s fantastic their time, their tagline is “Zapier makes you happier” with everything social. But what, but what I want to talk about is that the external use of Zapier is really obvious, but the internal use of Zapier is less obvious, but incredibly powerful. We can automate our own to do lists and follow up things using Zapier. So if an action is taken on your website and you need to follow up later, you don’t need to set up a zap to send an email to that person. You need to set up a zap to remind you that you have an action that you need to take internally. And so, especially when it comes to UX and designing these seamless processes, paying attention is really critical. And when there’s a lot of variables at play, things fall through the cracks. So using a tool like Zapier to automate your internal processes is actually a really great way to keep it off a cohesive wow,

Jason Tucker (00:50:24):
Yeah, zapier is awesome. We use it at work for all sorts of stuff. Being able To kind of push and pull things and do all the things that needs to make, make everything talk to each other. And yeah, it, especially if you’re, if you’re playing around with it and, and you get stuck, there are plenty of videos on YouTube explaining like, here’s how to make these two things talk to each other. And most of the time, even if you do a Google search for like, how do I make these two things talk to each other, they’re going to say, use Zapier to do you buy as well.

Michelle Keefer (00:50:56):
And the zap your team is really great. They have wonderful customer service. So if you’re trying to use Zapier and you get caught up, their support staff is fantastic as well.

Jason Tucker (00:51:05):
And I liked that they did. Zapier makes you happier cause you can’t say Zaypier makes you haypier.

Bridget Willard (00:51:10):
Well not, okay. That’s the only reason why I know how to pronunciate it.

Jason Tucker (00:51:14):
because I was like, is this Zapier’s is Zaypier? And it’s like, Zapier makes you happier. And that’s how you remember it.

Bridget Willard (00:51:20):
Before people did that. I call it Zaypier because that’s what it looks like

Bridget Willard (00:51:25):
Quite the English. Right.

Jason Tucker (00:51:28):
But then you don’t call them zaypes. they are zaps.

Bridget Willard (00:51:33):
Jason, what’s my tool?

Jason Tucker (00:51:35):
So I’ve been having to deal a lot with time-zones lately and Thai time-zones are such a pain in the butt, especially when you’re doing a show like this where you have no idea where the person’s at the finally find their other at and you’re like, Oh my gosh, it’s like nine o’clock or 10 o’clock at night for you. Oh my goodness. I’m so sorry. We’re, we’re bringing you in here to do this. But the, my tool my tool or tip of the week this week is to use a tool called Calzones and it’s not a really great it’s a pizza type product. It’s not. So what Calzone Calzones is, and I’m going to show you real quick here is it’s a it’s an app that you can run on your on your mobile device and also works with as a a watch app.

Jason Tucker (00:52:22):
So if you have a an Apple watch or something like that, you can do that as well. And what it does is it will show you what your local time is, which is at the very top. So mine says it’s nine mine, 54, and then it shows you all the other times zones that you care about. So you can go and add in additional time zones if you want. Go in here and say, I want to configure my time zones, put on all the time zones that you interact with. And then when you’re done, you go out here and you can see what those times are for that particular time. What I like about it is I can, I can quickly figure out I have a son who’s in the Marine Corps and so I need him to be able to, you know, get ahold of me and me be able to get ahold of him.

Jason Tucker (00:53:04):
And I don’t want to like I don’t want to hit him up at the wrong time. And so it’s like the easiest way to do it is to just go load, let’s load this up real quick and go, Oh, it’s two in the morning. He’s not going to be awake. Maybe he’s doing Firewatch, maybe he will be awake. All right, well, let’s see. So that’s a, that’s a great, that’s a great tool to kind of use to, to do that. So if you’re if you’re looking for something that’s going to help you out with doing that type of thing, you can do it using that. If you wanted to schedule a particular meeting or something, if you tap on one of those, you can actually go and fill out all the meeting information and then it will make sure that you are going to be awake and those people are going to be awake and then kind of work it out from there.

Jason Tucker (00:53:48):
So Calzones it’s five bucks in the app store and it’s made by it’s made by some really great people that have used or that have built other, other really sweet apps. If you’ve ever used pedometer plus plus or sleep plus plus or workouts plus plus there’s a bunch of plus pluses that he does. But there’s a, there his, his coding style and the way that he builds his interfaces and stuff are really nice. So yeah. Good, good. Take a look at that. That’s all zones.

Michelle Keefer (00:54:23):
I wonder how much user rest research he does and developing which products and how to get such great and intuitive platforms.

Jason Tucker (00:54:32):
Yeah. Cause the stuff that he builds is all of these, I mean all the plus pluses I use, I use the prompt pedometer plus plus and workout plus plus quite a bit. But yeah, he, he’s done some really cool things so feel free to go take a look at that. Like I said, it’s four, four, 99. If you’re, if you’re the kind of person that likes to look at these things inside, like the navigation or in the notification view or, or anything like that, you can kind of just go through and figure out what those times are and get it all work.

Michelle Keefer (00:55:03):
Oh, very cool. Thanks for sharing. I haven’t heard of that one. I tend to Google things like what time is it in orange County right now?

Bridget Willard (00:55:17):
Yeah. I mean because I have clients all over the world. I have their time zones in my world clock. Just Apple cause you know, qual and poorer. I’m like, Oh, it’s already tomorrow. Well it doesn’t really matter if I do it right now. I might as well just sleep.

Michelle Keefer (00:55:38):
Sorry, you made him pull it and then she’s always a day ahead of me. And so it’s just like, Oh, I don’t want, she’s not gonna wake up or 10 more hours. Like I can do this in a little bit.

Bridget Willard (00:55:47):
Especially with the differences in who adopts and if the daylight savings time and when.

Jason Tucker (00:55:58):
Oh yeah, that’s right.

Bridget Willard (00:56:00):
That’s really the worst. I mean, I feel like the UN is really missing their call. I mean, I know that they like to talk about child labor and stuff, but what I would like them to do is establish a universal worldwide daylight savings time and building codes.

Bridget Willard (00:56:26):
How many, how many earthquakes you need in Haiti before we figure this out. Joe the best Building codes are in Japan and, and Los Angeles. And I wonder why we have earthquakes. So let’s learn and iterate and like help them with their infrastructure. So, so many people don’t die in Lima, Peru, when they have an earthquake, which they always have earthquakes because they have mountains and wherever there’s mountains, there’s two tectonic plates going like this all the time. And that’s the kind of conflict we really need to be dealing with user testing. I mean we’ve got the data, data, those images and no one knew how to click on it.

Bridget Willard (00:57:13):
I mean I made like the Netherlands did an amazing job with their technology to be below sea level. We need to take that and then apply it to the Mississippi Delta. So like literally the lock system doesn’t work there. So as well. So like let’s learn from the Dutch.

Jason Tucker (00:57:40):
Bridget wants to start another podcast.

Bridget Willard (00:57:42):
To me, I think that it’s easier to deal with practical things than emotional things. Let’s, you know. But anyway, I say it as a joke, but I really think that it’s more practical there. More people have worked too. So I don’t know whatever. So we have like two more minutes. Michelle, can you give us like one more Pearl was done and how people can find you. Are you taking on client work?

Michelle Keefer (00:58:08):
So I have a wait list right now. Because I am actually, so I left pressable and I’m looking for a full time position and I’ve got some really great prospects lined up and hopefully we’ll be making an announcement in April, but I am taking client work just to kind of fill the gaps, but I’m not trying to overwhelm myself. Plus we’re in this middle of this big move and transition. And I’ve learned the hard way that saying yes to every project that comes across your plate, you end up getting projects that you don’t want to do. So they take way longer to do them or you can’t get along with the client and it just creates friction. And I don’t got time for none of that, so. Right. Wow. I’m being very selective. Which is good cause all the projects I’m working on right now are super fun. But I’m on LinkedIn for Michelle Keefer and then also on Twitter at, at MK does marketing, but it’s MKTG. So MK and DOE,S MKTG. Uagain, one of those things that to me it seems very intuitive and does marketing. That’s the acronym. Like, that’s how you abbreviate marketing. But other people are like, what does this mean? Like what is your Twitter mean?

Michelle Keefer (00:59:23):
You never know whether it’s your Twitter, Twitter handle or what it’s going to be a, you can’t assume that your user is going to understand how to find you. But yeah, I would love to do more of these. It would be, this has been fun. I really enjoy sharing my knowledge and teaching people and talking to people and helping people understand concepts. So I’m happy to do this again. Absolutely.

Bridget Willard (00:59:46):
Yeah. I mean I think you have, I think you win the prize for having the most amount of degrees.

Jason Tucker (00:59:53):
Yeah, no joke. Jeez. I was very intimidated when I click the button and we’re like, Oh goodness gracious. I just followed her on Instagram and LinkedIn and I was like.

Michelle Keefer (01:00:02):
Oh, I know. I think we know somebody with two master’s degrees, but not this many.

Michelle Keefer (01:00:09):
Well, my husband, so my husband wants to go back to school and so I’m being, I’m on a forced break. But I do plan on going back and get it and completing a doctorate in consumer behavior eventually that’s coming as well. Yeah, I love it. I’m a big nerd for it,

Bridget Willard (01:00:26):
So we need more people like you, Michelle, who take theory and practice. I put them in a good marriage.

Jason Tucker (01:00:34):
I’m going to wrap up real quick here. I want to let you know, go over to our website over at, but to find more information about this show and how you can get on the show and how you can sponsor this show. You can also go here today. which is going to be starting in just a few minutes. Well, actually about an hour, so feel free to go and take a look at that to talk to y’all later. You have a good one. Bye bye.

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“People think they can do UX without research; you’re designing in a bubble.” @MKdoesmktg


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