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Accessibility and marketing go hand in hand. It may not seem that way at first, but how do you divorce the user’s experience from your product’s marketing?

Can people find your website, use it, and get the information they need? Maybe, sure. What about Instagram? In-Person Menus? Do your videos have subtitles? Are they accurate?

Joe Simpson, Jr. joins Jason and Bridget to expand upon this topic we began in Episode 167. Join live to ask questions and be part of the chat.


Jason Tucker @jasontucker
Bridget Willard @bridgetmwillard
Joe Simpson Jr. @joesimpsonjr

Check out Bridget’s new book “Keys to Being Social: Being Real in a Virtual World”

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Table of Contents

0:11 Intro
1:32 You know, it pays to have a friend that’s a photographer. ~ Joe
5:38 How do you get a business owner to care that their site isn’t as accessible as it should be? ~ Bridget
6:36 Something like this forces them to realize that everyone needs to use their site. ~ Joe
8:51 Sticky headers on cell phones are not good ~ Jason
10:15 they have a table or phone ~ Bridget
10:36 It’s forcing people to simplify. ~ Joe
12:18 How can WordPress developers use the pandemic and need for accessibility as a marketing opportunity for themselves? ~ Bridget
13:25 The big challenge is making the basic stuff work ~ Joe
16:27 But if you’re a developer, you want to use some new, thing, Bridget. ~ Jason
16:57 They think of the visual before the even consider who the audience is ~ Joe
18:12 I’ve seen too many times where, you know, we want to use the new hotness that just came out. ~ Jason
19:02 Hey, I’m all about bells and whistles. I’m in marketing. ~ Bridget
20:22 This guy needs a better website because it wasn’t even resopnsive. ~ Joe
22:26 Yeah, just think of how many don’t have an online ordering system. ~ Joe
23:19 To say your credit card number over the phone, it’s not PCI compliant. ~ Bridget
24:17 These tools are already there for you to use. ~ Joe
24:46 My niece is deaf and when she’s done at work, she take off her hearing aids and she’s done. ~ Bridget
26:25 You can’t buy liquor in the grocery store at all. ~ Bridget
29:55 When you add transcripts to your video I’m sure it improves your SEO. ~Joe
31:19 You know, I watch TV with the subtitles on. ~ Jason
34:35 They will give you the ability to essentially build a lexicon of words ~ Jason
35:31 85% of folks that watch videos on Facebook look at them with the captioning turned on and the sound off. ~ Joe
36:49 TikTok videos that have subtitles. ~ Jason
37:19 No one is listening. ~ Bridget
37:32 They say to verbalize some of the things that are visual because people are making these videos to visually entertain you. ~ Joe
40:32 When things are forcibly broken, it gives the opportunity to go back and clean it up. ~ Joe
42:08 The fallback for oEmbed is that if you did an oEmbed correctly, it’s just the link. ~Jason
42:45 You can always take a screenshot. ~ Bridget
43:17 It was just a screen reader’s nightmare. ~Joe

Tool Or Tip Of The Week

Your ad could have been here. Just sayin’

Joe reminds us that you can turn on captions on Instagram in your settings.

Jason recommends for transcription service.

Bridget recommends for learning PHP, which is something she is doing now.

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Editor’s Note: Transcriptions of episodes are created with a mix of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain some grammatical errors or slight deviations from the audio.

Jason Tucker 0:11
This is episode number 174 of Smart Marketing Show Marketing with Accessibility Part II with our friend Joe Simpson Jr Thank you for ServerPress, makers of DesktopServer. They make local WordPress development easy, check them out at Bridget’s new book, go check it out. You can support us on Patreon go to I’m Jason Tucker, I’m an IT director and web developer you can find me @jasontucker on Twitter. My friend Bridget Willard, she’s a marketing consultant. You can find her at @bridgetmwillard on Twitter. And Joe Simpson Jr. He’s a front end web developer and disability advocate. You can find him @joesimpsonjr on Twitter. Hey, hi, everyone.

Bridget Willard 1:13
WordCamp Orange County t shirt!

Jason Tucker 1:17
You know I love it when we have a guest who their all of their hero graphics on their website. Are these just great looking photos? And I’m like, dude, I get picked from the litter. Which one do I want? Don’t want this one. Do I want that one? You know, Joe looks good in this one, why don’t we use this one right

Joe Simpson Jr 1:32
here? Well, you know, it pays to have a friend that’s a photographer. I had a colleague in my office who he was our company photographer, and he moved on. And I had him do my daughter’s graduation photos. And I said, Hey, why don’t you come to wordcamp Orange County, I’ll get you a ticket, you can get a free lunch, I’ll buy something, you know, a piece of camera equipment. And he shot me that whole day. And I’ve just been milking those photos for the past three years.

Jason Tucker 1:56
That is awesome. Yeah, I I’ve, I’ve learned that in order to be able to get good photos of you, like, no one’s gonna take your photos unless you ask. And if they do take your photos, it might not be like the one that you want. Yeah, like, you know, bring like, bring like a $50 bill, or bring like a 20 you know, a couple 20s or whatever. And if you see somebody with a camera, you’re like, hey, look, I need you to get me a good shot cuz I’m going to be on some podcast down the road, and I need to have a good photo.

Bridget Willard 2:23
Or, or you should get somebody to tell you what not to wear. Because I got good pictures of me at Vegas, in a terrible outfit. be.. let me tell you those white pants did not make it to Texas. But also, if you change your hair a lot that doesn’t really work Joe doesnt change is here that much. So

Jason Tucker 2:48
I know that I changed my hats because I don’t have any hair under me. Especially in this setting. I don’t want to glare your eyeballs out with my bald head.

Bridget Willard 2:57
They’re so cute. I am so happy that you’re going back to talk about accessibility again. Because Jason and I were just talking about QR codes and restaurant. I mean, I, I’m the practical person, like, every time you talk about a new technology, all of our web developer and engineer friends are like, Oh my gosh, we could build this, this, this, this, this this. And I’m like going. Yeah, but do we want that? Did we ask for that? Is that very helpful to us? Like doo doo doo doo doo? You know, just because you can doesn’t mean you should, you know, that’s me all the time. So like, I keep talking about restaurants because like, that’s where I’m going. Like, I don’t really go anywhere, except for the grocery store. And maybe a restaurant was Rhonda or something. Like I’ve just, you know, so where you like, and, and I’m having a lot of trouble with menus, even with my 2020 vision. I like people are sending me to to websites. Like another like big trend, where I think accessibility is even more relevant right now is all of these parties that housewives have I know that sounds derogatory, it’s not meant to be but that’s the demographic of the of their MLM thing. So whether leggings or Pampered Chef or 31, and then you go to the website, from your phone because you’re just laying in bed, watching Netflix scrolling, you get invited to a party, you’re like, Oh, those are cool leggings. And then you click it and then you’re trying to find a product and and the description is like two point font that you need a magnifying glass on it to locate your device. It’s only three inches wide. And I feel like this topic is relevant for more. Not to say that the challenged areas whether it’s Deaf or hard Hearing or sight, or limbs, like those are legitimate issues.

Jason Tucker 5:07

Bridget Willard 5:08
But when it comes to trying to get empathy on why a business should be accessible. You said before Joe, if your size accessible, you’re gonna make money. So I was wondering if you could kind of start off with? How do you get a business owner to care that their site isn’t as accessible as it should be?

Joe Simpson Jr 5:39
Well, you know, the since the last time I was on it, you can see that I’m wearing a sling now, my head surgery on my rotator cuff. So I’m technically disabled now. And it brought what you just mentioned to light, I had to, I use my mouse with my right hand. And now that we’re all in pandemic, or stay at home, we’ve all wanted to order something, some food, since we couldn’t go to restaurants, it couldn’t sit in restaurants. There were so many restaurants that you couldn’t even access there’s their sites, through through their website, it was just impossible. I have a ramen place that I love here in Santa Clarita. And their sites gone up and down, because initially it didn’t have any. It just had a phone number. And then they tried to do a PDF. And then they tried to do an e commerce style curb with curbside and everything. And it’s gone up and down. Because obviously, they didn’t think it was important at the beginning. Actually, their site was closed for six weeks. And

Bridget Willard 6:34
oh my gosh, six weeks.

Joe Simpson Jr 6:36
Yeah. Yeah, which was amazing. But I think something like this forces them to realize that everyone needs to use their site. And it’s amazing that they don’t think that everyone can use their site, as it’s currently constituent, I mean, constituted. How many folks can you know, especially now that we’re all on phones, that makes it even more challenging because most sites are designed for desktop or you know, the older sites, or expecting you to have a plugin like Acrobat or something like that. But on your phone, you need to be able to read it, you don’t need two point type like it, you explained. So I think now it’s more, it’s more in their face, because they’re forced to deal with it. And it’s amazing how many sites still aren’t open for curbside, but but there are some good examples. But like you said, so many of the ancillary things like you know, for like for cats, like I search for cats all the time, those sites haven’t really deemed it necessary. But like I said, Now that we’re realizing that this pandemic is going on its eighth or ninth month, I think it’s pretty clear now that you make money, when you make your site open to everyone. And again, making it easier for everyone to use, increases the number of people that use your site. So it seems to go hand in hand. And it seems to be an easier sell. I do a lot of meetups now, and I sit in on the London WooCommerce site because I get up super early. And they were saying so many more people are asking to transition their sites into an e commerce format, so they can sell. So it seems like the message is getting out. But it seems like they were forced to deal with it because we all had to do stay at home.

Jason Tucker 8:16
Yeah, I know that like with, with, you know, you have these websites where they’ll put some type of little like modal type thing that will show up at the bottom of the page. Or they’ll have an ad section of the site that will show up at the bottom or whatever. And on a on a desktop or desktop version of the site. You look at it and you’re like, Okay, well, that section at the very bottom of the site is now blocked. Okay? No, whatever, click the button and have it go away. But then when you’re on your phone, that thing could be this much the phone

Joe Simpson Jr 8:50
It takes up 2/3 of the screen

Jason Tucker 8:50
forever, or if they have a sticky header, sticky headers on on on cell phones are not good, especially if it’s gonna be this monster size thing. So you know, like, when even if you do go through, like I tried to order food one time on some website and trying to use their their whole menuing scheme. That header was so big that I had maybe a much to look at, to find out what the graphic of the thing was, and what you know what the actual you know, what quantity of item do I want? Do I want to add it to my cart and then add to my cart, the bottom of the site now shows the cart. So now I only had this much space to work with. So at that point, I was like, I’m done. I’m not buying from these people, like I do not need this. I’m good. And it’s there. You know, those types of things are, you know, if you’re just trying to buy food online, okay, whatever. But if you’re trying to pay your bills, you know, and you can’t pay a bill because the site was you know, set up at some janky way, you’re gonna have a really hard time being able to To navigate that thing, especially if the only device you have is a cell phone, and you have to think people may only have a cell phone.

Bridget Willard 10:07
Well, yeah, because they don’t need a computer. A lot of people don’t need a compute computer,

Jason Tucker 10:14

Bridget Willard 10:15
They have a tablet or a phone, or like my aunt is dealing with all the stuff with my grandmother’s passing on a Kindle. tablet.

Joe Simpson Jr 10:31
Oh, wow.

Bridget Willard 10:33
She’s lovely. 70 whatever years old.

Joe Simpson Jr 10:36

Bridget Willard 10:36
She doesn’t have a laptop…

Joe Simpson Jr 10:36
it’s really ramped up. Yeah, it’s forcing people to simplify. I mean, you have to, you know, especially think of think of, you know, it goes back to the menu example that you mentioned, Jason. A lot of restaurants have super long menus, what are your best sellers, that’s what people want. I mean, you don’t need to list 100 items, especially if you’re doing takeout, people want to see your menu quick and see their favorite and order it. So it really forces people to, to really take a step back and think about how can you communicate in the simplest way. And again, accessibility and simplicity sort of going hand in hand this summer. As part of this time off, that I’ve been doing with my shoulder to recovery, I’ve just gone headfirst into so many accessibility things. And over the weekend, I think at wordcamp, Los Angeles, this gentleman was talking about how his approach to development has simplified how he, you know, everyone’s going headless, and, you know, getting more and more complex in terms of the JavaScript they use. And he was, he was a proponent for simplifying and he said design as if it was 1995. You know, do it really basic HTML, CSS, and a light bit of JavaScript should be able to solve all your problems. And if you approach it that way, you address accessibility along the way, instead of trying to retrofit it and go backwards, a lot of folks will develop something. And then at the last minute, they’ll say, Oh, we need to make sure this is accessible, which is totally the wrong approach, you know, you should really go mobile first and think of accessibility right off the bat, and then work forward. So it’s just forcing people to think differently. So, again, it’s all good. Because again, if you make it more accessible, you’ll sell more. So, process.

Bridget Willard 12:18
So how do you? Um, yes, 100% I love that. And minimalism right now isn’t a bad thing. For example, when I moved to Texas, like, visually, I mean, when I was young, it’s like they’re smelling hair. It’s all flat. And I’m like, there’s nothing here. You know, there’s so trees. It’s awesome, right? So like, we have different times where we’re overstimulated everything right now we’re really overstimulated. But certain things in our homes and things like that. But, um, so I love that idea of simplicity. But I’d like to sort of transition a little bit for this part too, into talking to our friends, WordPress developers who build websites for a living, how can they use this opportunity? How can they use this x pandemic? Need for accessibility? How can they use that as a marketing opportunity for themselves?

Joe Simpson Jr 13:25
Well, to me, we talked a little bit about the challenges, you know, with development, there’s always something new or something impressive that you could do with a new flavor of JavaScript or something like that. So that’s the challenge is like a basic form should work, no matter who accesses it. But the more fancy things you do on the back end, it makes it more difficult. So it’s, I think, I think it’s a big challenge, because it’s sort of like you’re you have a superpower, but really, they only want you to use your, you know, your super breath or whatever, instead of using your, your eye beams or in your superpower and your super strength. It I would say that the big challenge is making sure the basic stuff works. You know, a lot of times when someone with a disability comes to a site and has to use a form, and or like if you’re forced to select something before moving on, or a lot of these things that are built into a development process. If you just strip those out, and just make sure that it works like for instance, a fancy menu, like a flyout menu, if you can’t tap through with your keyboard, then you’re cutting out a large number of people in the audience. So again, some of the times the bells and whistles that make development a beautiful thing is what really hurts. So try to convince them that you know, really make sure that it works and it functions before you start adding in all the bells and whistles is the biggest challenge.

Bridget Willard 14:54
So if I’m hearing you correctly, using my active listening skills Ah, you’re saying That they should build sites that work, not that show off all the skills that they have.

Joe Simpson Jr 15:07
But you know, it’s, it’s challenging, right? Like you want to charge, you just

Bridget Willard 15:11
say that on TV, yes,

Joe Simpson Jr 15:13
you want to you want to charge the top dollar, you want to do great things. But those aren’t this, you know, that’s the the things that I’m asking people to do aren’t that sexy, high dollar thing, but to me, but but to me, if you build that into your quote, or make it part of your service plan, it’ll, it’ll sort of even out

Bridget Willard 15:33
Well, there’s a whole lot of my friends cuz I read your tweets, who want their work to be challenging. And I say work shouldn’t be challenging work should be going like this, turn those tables over launch the sites, you want to be challenged, go learn German on Duolingo. Because it’s really, really hard. Like, like I told you the pre show, I was getting kind of bored even with learning my German, I’m like flying through it. So I started Code Academy learning PHP last night, which is my Tool Tip of the Week, and I just blew it. But like, that’s, I’m saying, like, I don’t go to the marketing, like marketing my services saying, I know how to also make banana pancakes, nobody cares, right? That is your work. Your work is your work in order to be challenged.

Jason Tucker 16:27
But if you’re a developer, you want to use some new thing, Bridget, there’s a new framework that just came out and we got to use that new framework, oh,

Bridget Willard 16:38
build a site for a nonprofit and give it away? like Joe was talking about, I mean, there’s a lot of ways you could do that kind of thing. But still, if it’s a nonprofit, it’s an e commerce store. Right, Joe? So it needs to be simple enough so that everybody can donate?

Joe Simpson Jr 16:57
Yeah, you want people to be able to do what you want them to do a lot of times, you know, we’ll, we’ll we’ll think about a lot of times in my work. They think of the visual and how important the message is, before they even consider who the audience is. So, I mean, I think that’s just natural for us to want to do that. But just think of the effective sites like Amazon, you can go bang, bang, bang, bang really quickly. I mean, some sites, they know what, what the end result is, and they want to get you there as fast as possible. It’s not about, you know, seeing something that’s really pretty that flashes in front of your face, it’s really something that works well. And I think if you solve your client’s problem, I mean, a lot of times these types of projects lead to more work or more, you know, just a basic site build a lot of times will lead to something else, if, if things are done Prop, I shouldn’t say if things are done properly. But hopefully, they’ll lead to more. A lot of times, your client will think of additional things along the way as you’re building your site, or you’re creating their brand presence. And you’ll have to incorporate that in or give them a new quote. So to me, you can always add more later. But solving the problem initially, it may not be as sexy, but again, it has a long term benefit, I think.

Jason Tucker 18:12
Yeah, yeah, I don’t know. I’ve seen too many too many times where, you know, we want to use the new hotness that just came out. And then we come to find out that that new hotness is gonna make us more money because of the fact that it’s broken. You have to try to come up with a new thing. Because a lot of times like you were you know, you don’t want to roll in bleeding edge bleeding edge technologies, but sometimes you have to, because it’s what’s going to fix the thing. And it’s going to make it easier or better to do so. Yeah, that’s me.

Joe Simpson Jr 18:49
And there may be instances when you need to try something new or need to solve a challenging problem. I mean, I’m not saying one size fits all, but just make sure you solve the initial problem and then forget about the bells and whistles, but

Jason Tucker 19:02

Bridget Willard 19:03
hey, I’m all about bells and whistles. I’m in marketing. I’m just saying that. from a financial standpoint, this is part of my soapbox, is I want my friends to just turn over sites, right? One of the things that Russell Aaron used to do is he would build a site for a restaurant like these ones that didn’t have them back in the day, he would build somebody a site, and then show it to them on DesktopServer who thank you for sponsoring us, and then go like this site is built you on it. And then give me all the dollars. Right, right. Like, I feel like this could be a marketing opportunity. Maybe not in that fashion. If that’s not your style, but like, caught if it’s your restaurant you use I’m not saying you should do a job but I’m saying like in this example say it’s say it is the ramen place. You’re like, Hey, dude, I love you guys. That’s it. This is a cry for help. I would love to do this for you, I’m gonna even just count it or barter bartering is awesome. Women. We do this all the time I bargain with my friends. We have bartering relationships. But like, you know, what about that kind of thing? Like, if you see if you see something, say something, kind of a situation.

Joe Simpson Jr 20:22
Yeah, I mean, there’s so many examples. I know, the week for work camps. And in Krita, the first year when we were in person, one of the after party venues, that was one of the things I wanted to do that was on my to do list, I was like, This guy needs a better site, because it didn’t even it wasn’t even responsive. I was like, you know that your website is as if it’s 1975. So yes, it would have been a great opportunity. And like you said, especially now, just think if you if you solve that problem, you could turn around and turn it into all the other restaurants. As you know, it could be a selling car for all the other restaurants.

Bridget Willard 20:59
Leave, last leave. I promise I write for a living, but see that the payments writing go backwards, a loss leader. So that’s, that’s the thing. It’s like going in there. And and a lot of times I see on Twitter, how do I get more clients? Or how do I start? You start like Gary Vaynerchuk used to say this, how do I start speaking, you start doing it for free? And we do that in the WordPress community? All

Jason Tucker 21:28
right. Oh, yeah.

Bridget Willard 21:29
So um, and then you get known and then people want to hear from you. Right? So if you’re a new developer, because I always like to kind of bring it back to the WordPress people that need help marketing. If you’re a new developer, or you’re a developer, that’s now saying, Hey, I have things for sale, or, hey, I want side work, or Hey, I just built this plugin. If you’re new to the, to the market, you know, not new, but new to the market, how do you develop that, and one of the ways would be to help these small businesses with with very specific changes that could help them with their bottom line. And then you can say, Hey, I used to I’ve done these websites. And now these now, these businesses have more orders have more customers have more volume?

Joe Simpson Jr 22:26
Yeah, just think of how many don’t have an online ordering system. And you have to call? Or some you know, a lot of the some of the restaurants that are cash only or I mean, how do those sites that depended on people coming through the front door? How do they live in a pandemic, you know, exist in a pandemic world. So, I mean, there’s so many, you know, building that kind of system in a WordPress space, could be very profitable if you come up with something that can be packaged and repurposed. So and like you said, it’s like a restaurant in general, we keep going back to this restaurant metaphor, restaurants thrive on the fact they need to turn tables as quickly as possible. And as a developer, if you develop something that you could turn over and use for multiple clients, that increases your profit margin. So why wouldn’t you want to work more efficiently? Is the question that I would challenge them with?

Jason Tucker 23:16

Bridget Willard 23:19
Because when you’re calling a business, no matter what, you know, if you’re calling them to order something, and then you’re saying numbers 1-234-567-8910 1112 1314 1516. Oh, and this is the thing and it’s not PCI compliant, to say your phone to their to say your credit card number over the phone, it’s not PCI compliant. And I was like, one of my local restaurants at Dana Point, I was like, I’m literally giving you like, I wish that I felt bold enough to say you need to open a PayPal account, or Venmo. And I could just Venmo you but my junk guy, the guy that came and took my junk away, had Venmo Oh, I know.

Joe Simpson Jr 24:10
I know.

Bridget Willard 24:11
But restaurants aren’t using PayPal or Venmo or zelle. What is this?

Joe Simpson Jr 24:17
Oh, I know. And like I said, you would think that during these last eight months, you would have had to either you’re faced with going out of business or changing and these things, these tools are already there for you to use. So I can I can I ask a question of you, please. Bridget? Yeah, I know. I’ve seen you really active on I always see you on Twitter and Instagram. How do you think the our initial talk has impacted how you look at accessibility on social media? So are you market yourself?

Bridget Willard 24:46
That’s a really good question. Um, my niece is deaf. And when, when she’s done at work, because she’s a teacher, she takes off her hearing aids and she’s done. She’s so done. It takes so much mental energy to even use your hearing aids and read lips. It’s exhausting.

Joe Simpson Jr 25:08
Okay? So don’t just just think of the challenge of masks now that aren’t see through. It’s a problem.

Bridget Willard 25:14
It’s a really big problem. I have another friend who signs and reads lips on Twitter. And he’s like this is he was saying it from day one. This is BS. I am a deaf hard to hear person who reads lips. You know, you go to the grocery store. Now what? Okay, but as far as how I’ve done it, I’ve been way more faithful to add sub to add captioning files. For me and my clients. I don’t even charge them extra for that if they have a video, I throw it up on And I know there’s a bunch of other tools but that was the one chase it told me and I’m like this works. I just like it in one place. I’m not gonna keep changing vendors. That’s just not me. Um, that’s me. That’s Jason, but that’s what he does. Like, that’s the thing like but for me, so like I did a wine video the other day just to be ridiculous. I’m gonna do another one tonight. A bourbon drinker tries wines. You know, just funny.

Joe Simpson Jr 26:17
I saw that on. I saw it. Right. You were saying in Texas, they have different rules about alcohol.

Bridget Willard 26:26
Oh, yeah. You can’t buy liquor in the grocery store at all. Yeah, but yeah, you could get bourbon at brouse. You know, but here you can only buy at a liquor store. And liquor stores aren’t open on Sunday, and they close at 9pm to plan ahead, so you can buy wine and beer at the at the grocery store. We still got buying on Sunday, so it doesn’t matter. Like whatever. But anyway, so like I thought, well, I’ll just try wines. It’ll be funny to people. But like those subtitles. And I did another video like I did a Beaver Builder tutorial. That was 18 minutes long. Okay, editing something for three minutes. What ever. Because it takes wait because first of all, I mumble. It’s bad. And when I’m editing my own transcripts, boy Howdy. It’s bad. At some point, oh, good Lord, I am mumbling. So I’m so that’s one thing. I wish that I know that Rev will do it or somebody else but I wish. But I mean Temi’s a product of Rev. But I wish that for Instagram that they could be baked in. Although, well, I used to bake them in on screencast o Matic. But then if somebody uses them on YouTube, they go on top. And then they’re really really hard to read. I don’t make them into the video anymore. Because also if you if you add the SRT file that can be translated. So I’ve added German to some of my videos for requests from my partner, Warren lenita. Over in Germany, we’re doing more things together writing and this kind of stuff. And he’s like, I really want to use your video on Twitter, in my class, but you know, speak German, so I put German subtitles, right? So those subtitles is a huge and so the thing is with Instagram, I’ve been more cognizant about whatever words are in the picture should also be words down below. And because I follow other people like reimar, and Philip Roth and a bunch of other people that speak German if you use a hashtag in the middle of your sentence, Mm hmm. People, which I hate anyway, and then you click translate. Uh huh. That hashtags not translated. So, translation to me, in my world, in a world where we interact with people all over the place I have, I have a I have an Austrian client of German client. I have a client who is you know, Polish. So like, I language is important to me. Okay, I if I click that translate, and then that was translated, then I don’t know. So translation is also part of accessibility. So Instagram, and then also you know what else Joe? I’ve been like, I been better about alt tags on Twitter, because I’ll upload a picture. And I’m like, Man, this is a pain in the ass. Well, guess what? It’s a pain in the ass because all day long. I’m doing alt tags on blogs mine and whoever else is I have to deal with but if it helps that one person

Joe Simpson Jr 29:55
Well, you know, it helps you to this summer. I mentioned I’ve been off for the past six weeks. And we had two folks in this summer to talk to our meetup. They’re both hearing free. And they talked about captioning. And they did two amazing presentations. And one of the things that most people don’t know is that when you add that transcript to your video, on YouTube or on Instagram, I’m sure it improves your SEO, because it allows the YouTube search bot as well as if someone’s searching on Google to find that information through the dialogue. So yeah, and then it also serves another purpose, because you can repurpose that transcript and turn it into a blog story. So Exactly, yeah, so one of the tips that they mentioned, and I’m not sure if you, if you’re familiar with it, but when you upload your video to YouTube, use the auto captioning feature before you push it live, keep it unlisted, or private. And then once you get the auto captioning file, download that, edit that and put it back up. And that way, it does a lot of the work for you. Then you could just tweak it like you. You mentioned, I’m the same way. Sometimes my sentences thrown together, or some of the results I get in auto captioning are really hilarious. But I always go in edit that and then I put it up and then I push it live so that it can be indexed. And repurposed. So

Jason Tucker 31:19
that’s a great, especially, especially if you’re using technical jargon. Or if you are, you use a product that has very specific uppercase lowercase uses, such as I don’t know, you know, who WPwatercooler, PHP, WordPress, like any of those words, they’re just gonna put it the way it needs to be put. And that’s it. And you can tell that this thing hasn’t been edited. But with the when it comes to like the product names and services that we use. If that person that’s listening, hears you say it correctly, then they know what to go look for. But if they’re looking at only the subtitles, and they see that ServerPress is is called severed, pressed or something like it just it just, it’s, it’s close, but it’s not exactly it. You can have it, you can have a pretty big problem with it. Yeah, and, you know, for me, like, I’m one of those people that and I think there’s a lot more people that do this now. But I you know, I watch TV with the subtitles on. I watch YouTube, on my TV, with the subtitles on. I we use YouTube as like as like watching TV. Like we don’t have TV, like normal terrestrial TV or anything like they’re even cable. So we just watch YouTube. And the thing is, is that I you know, I, if I’m watching it, and I’m looking at the subtitles and subtitles wrong, I’m like, this is just auto generated junk from from YouTube, they didn’t spend the time to go through and edit it. So, you know, for me, like when we do the speaker reads for the sponsor reads for you know, for the different shows, I have to go share it, I have to be 100% sure that I’m actually putting in the correct information because not only that the person paid for me to actually, you know, speak about it. And I’m like, Bridget, if if I’m speaking about this, if I’m actually saying those words, the transcript and the you know, and the any of the subtitles need to be correct, too. So yeah, it’s

Bridget Willard 33:28
no it’s a thing because it’s branding. Okay, so yeah, I one of my clients is a realtor with Remax capital R EA slash ma x, it says REMAX professionals correctly, but it’s not correct.

Jason Tucker 33:46
Yeah, and a lot of those a lot of those tools that are that are used for doing these different types of captioning. Some of them like for instance of using zoom, you can actually pay to have that service, essentially hop into zoom as another person, and it will transcribe the text in real time to make sure it’s going to be correct.

Bridget Willard 34:08
Yeah. So I’m Rhonda saying how

Jason Tucker 34:13
Yeah, yeah, otter. That was my Tool Tip of the Week. Thanks, Rhonda. You too, are gonna have to think of your Tool Tip of the Week on the fly. Yeah, but, you know, if you use any of those products and services, a lot of them and what I’ll give you a really good tip with these is that they will give you the ability to essentially build a lexicon of words that you can you can give it that is like here’s WordPress, I always say the word WordPress. I always say the word say read. Like you know, like these are names that are of people that have very specific Spelling’s very specific ways in which they’re going to be doing it. You know, Joe a Simpson Jr. If I say the words Joe a Simpson. jr I want it to look this way. I don’t want jr at the end to be spelled out the word Jr. I want it to be Jr. Like, you know, there’s those things that you can do and make it so that it’s going to look you know it’s going to look good and people are gonna be able to read it. And just like Joe was saying you’re going to use that transcript, hopefully as a blog post on your website, which is what we do here on WPwatercooler network, we take that transcript and put it as part of the, you know, the the transcript on the website. So, yeah,

Joe Simpson Jr 35:31
yeah, I think one of the things I appreciate about you, Bridget, like after our first visit, the first time I was on with you, you sent me the transcripts afterwards. And I and to me, that seems like just such a natural thing to do when you’re doing audio or video content. I was just going to share, also the folks that came in to talk to us, the one gentleman in the in the hearing feed community, they refer to the the captioning and YouTube, the automatic caption and as captions, because a lot of times it produces sometimes offensive and sometimes hilarious iteration with what you’re saying or interpretations of what you’re saying. So it’s important. And then the other thing I was going to say, and it goes back to Jason’s point. I don’t know if many people know I think there’s been some early statistics like on Facebook 85% of folks that watch videos on Facebook, they look at them with the captioning turned on or the sound off. Like if you’re commuting into work, and you can’t really hear it probably because there’s a lot of background noise a lot of people put the captions on so they can read it. So it’s important to have captions as part of what you’re doing so

Bridget Willard 36:38
or you’re on your phone watching something else while you’re sitting with your husband watches something you don’t want to watch. Yep, that’s real life. It’s true or vice versa.

Jason Tucker 36:49
Look, it’s gotten it’s gotten so I don’t want to say bad, bad, bad, bad. You know, it’s not it’s gotten judgment. Yeah, it’s gotten so, so prevalent here in that I’m looking at TikTok videos, tiktok videos that have subtitles, somebody straight up typed in what they were saying, as a subtitle is that subtitles just like some little text, it’s up in the corner. But they’re starting to realize that you can’t no one’s watching this stuff to actually like no one here.

Bridget Willard 37:19
No one is listening

Jason Tucker 37:19
What is insane. They’re just watching it going like, okay, you’re dancing or whatever. But then the person’s like, you know, get out and vote, get out and vote or whatever. And you’re like, you can’t see that, because they’re saying it but you don’t have your headphones on.

Joe Simpson Jr 37:32
So there was a, there was a great article, and I’m sorry, Jason to interrupt. There’s a great article on tips on Instagram and it applies to tik tok, especially what you’re saying. They say to verbalize some of the things that are visual because like you said, people are making these videos to visually entertain you. But imagine if you can’t really interpret what someone’s doing, or if you can’t see what they’re doing. If you visually describe it. It’ll help them out. So it’s all tied together.

Bridget Willard 38:00
Yeah. So I mean, we forget and And usually, a lot of people who are big accessibility advocates have, or have loved ones with issues. So it does help. You know, it’s like, I’ve made friends with people because Aspen camp is a deaf and hard of hearing. That’s what they call it deaf and hard of hearing. Camp, literally, like a youth camp, where they can just be themselves. And they don’t have to like worry about everybody understanding them. And it’s just such a great like, nonprofit. Well, the lady who used to do their website I became friends with, you know, and so every time I had those views of captures not just my niece, you know, it’s Katie gone. Yes. Thanks for having me the captions, and it does bring it home to you that it matters. It doesn’t just it’s not it’s not just a convenience for the hearing. You know, if you want to talk about privilege with accessibility, it’s about maximizing the amount of people who can see, hear, touch, taste, experience the content that you’ve worked so hard to produce. Yeah, you know, and I started thinking about the whole oEmbed thing that ends tomorrow, by the way, October 24. The Legacy endpoints for Facebook’s API are goodbye. Okay. So if you have links that used to be all embedded on your WordPress site from Facebook or Instagram, then they will be broken. So what I started thinking about Joe is Hey, we’re just as lazy people as we are sometimes, because technology allows us to be lazy. Sometimes I just like, Oh, I like this Instagram post that fits what I’m writing about. Copy the link, boom, the site and people can see it, you know, I mean, whatever, but I’m not thinking even about the alt tags or anything, I’m kind of thinking, this break might be good for accessibility. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Joe Simpson Jr 40:32
Well, um, I think it a lot of times when things are forcibly broken, it does the opportunity, go back and clean it up. I think of it as a good thing, I mean, it just depends on and once you in, once embedded, making sure that you’ve done all taken all the steps, again, it, you’re gonna have to go back and make some sort of effort to clean it up, though, again, at that point, as long as you’re aware of what you need, I guess that’s the main point. If If people find that something, something is breaking, it should be it should conjure up, hey, I need to do this, or I need to do this to make it more accessible. I know, just shifting a little bit. In our office, for example, the battle with with that I have with marketers or clients all the time is making contextual links, instead of doing a click here or read more things like that. And so every time we revise something, or, or add some new content, I go back and forth with them on it to hopefully drill it into their skull that in terms of making it accessible, you need more textual fashion. So I think in, in your example, it was sort of work the same way. What if you’re, if you have to go back and clean up something that breaks tomorrow, for example, on the 24th. Hopefully, you’ll think hey, how can I make this more accessible when I update it? So I mean, that would be good. I mean, it’s a little more work. But again, if you have to go back and fix it, why not take an extra 15 or 20 seconds or 30 seconds or a minute to make sure it’s accessible?

Jason Tucker 42:08
And Bridget, luckily, the fallback for oEmbed is that if you did an oEmbed correctly, it’s just the link. So if you if you just put in the you know, just the the, slash, whatever that Oh, embed, it’s gonna fall back to just being a link,

Bridget Willard 42:28
which is awesome, because that’s what I was hoping he would say, because then you can make a good contextual link, right?

Joe Simpson Jr 42:35
Click here, read more in reverse.

Jason Tucker 42:38
But then oh, embed wouldn’t work either. So I know it’s a funky one.

Bridget Willard 42:45
I mean, you can always take a screenshot, if you’re really that hard about having it that way. But then you’ve got to write the alt text. So Sucks to be you. It’s just but but the SEO people always saying good, accessibility is good SEO. And Rachel cherry always says, Good HTML is good accessibility. Like if you do things right, the first in the first place? Uh huh. Then it works for everyone.

Joe Simpson Jr 43:17
Yeah, I mean, you know, when, you know, a lot of folks when they design and one of my presentations this summer, I had an example of an art site. And as you move through the site, you saw the different headings, and they were, treat it differently in terms of design. So one was bigger than the other. But when you went through in scan, you know, what the screen reader is just reading the newspaper, like, you’ll quickly scan the headlines, and you’ll determine, hey, I want to read that one about the gubernatorial election or this or that you priority, you prioritize them based on just a quick glance at the page. And so a screen reader pulls up the headings for someone in it in an accessible, you know, in an accessibility or an accessible, they have an accessible requirement, it puts up all the headings for them, and they could quickly go through and see it, but on this art site, the H, they used like 12 h ones, and they used h twos and h2, it was all out of order. And it was just based on how it was visually. So obviously, the designer was designing it based on you know, I want h ones to be this side. Instead of doing it semantically where you know, it moves, you know, h1, h2, h3 in terms of priority. So again, it was just screen readers nightmare. So things like that. I mean, those are simple things, because out of the box, if you, you know, drop content on a page and give it h1, h2, there’s a visual difference in a hierarchy automatically, but we go in and we style it and we want to do all this crazy stuff. So again, it’s that simple approach that I always sort of hark back on it. But we’re our own worst enemy. Sometimes.

Jason Tucker 44:53
We are. Especially we don’t know how to use the tools that we’re using. Especially if you’re getting paid Do you use the tools that we’re using? And you’re using them that way? That is really difficult to look at and go like, Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? But that brings us to our our Tip of the Week. Right, Bridget? Yeah, our Tool or Tip of the Week is brought to you by the fine folks over at Bridget Willard. She’s been social, go over to, Bridget Willard, Facebook, or Facebook and go over to her Amazon and go check it out. Go over and take a look at it. She has it available. As you can see right there. It’s a physical book that she’s holding. Um, you can also go and get it as an ebook. And through Kindle, and if you’re like me, you can have the Kindle read it to you using the echo products.

Bridget Willard 45:47
So Rhonda told me I need to tell people I got I have big ass text on here, because I’m over 45. Okay, by 2020 vision. You know, you don’t know how to change your readers. I did that on purpose. That’s why it’s 300 pages. But anyway, so on my Tool Tip of the Week is learn, okay, I maybe it’s because I’m a Gen Xer, but like, I have all these people, they’re like, I’m so bored. How are you bored? Like, really? How are you bored? Like you, you a little young person didn’t have to sit through a silent Thanksgiving. In Arizona, watching you have a play LSU in it 93 with no telephone to look at, and no place to go and nobody to talk to. Like we’re not prisoners. Okay, we have phones, most of the time you see people eating with each other, and they’re all on their phones anyway, like, give me a break, do something with your life and learn something. And learning is great for your brain. Because the more you learn, the more neural pathways you make. So it’s like building freeways. So the more that you learn, the more you can learn. And then it makes learning even easier for other things. So I’m doing my German on Duolingo, I’m having fun with that I’m doing well. And then I was looking at my Free Code Camp account. And I’m still stuck on those. My front end projects, like I finished the whole front end curriculum before JavaScript, and I even started some of the JavaScript. But like, I have to do those projects, or I don’t finish it technically. And I’m like, I don’t want to do that because I get lazy. So I decided to start a free account at code. Code Academy used to be code uh cademy after some reason, they decided to be Code Academy. And it didn’t talk to me, it’s been $185 on my marketing console, I would have said, No, do not do that. It’s Code Academy, I literally tagged the wrong people. On Twitter, I was like, oh, doing Code Academy, because I always heard Code Academy Code Academy Code Academy. So it’s co D, CA, d It’s free. But you can become a pro member for like $14 a month or something. And then after each lesson, you can do some kind of project. That’s more fun. So I was actually thinking of doing that. Because after my first PHP lesson, I could have made a dice game. But then my people on Twitter were like, make a form, but no make a to do list. Like pick a to do list. The dice game sounds more fun. Like I was just drinking my walbeck eating m&ms and doing PHP lessons just because I can and it’s free. And it’s not it’s not see the thing is when you do something like that. It’s more like a puzzle. And it’s not wall wall wall. I don’t want to watch another person do something. I want to do it. I learned by doing. I learned by touching. I was yelling and cussing and it’s so bad you guys, because I read everything goes right to left. It’s like our Western privilege, or whatever. But then when it asked me to make an alias, I did it backwards. And I’m like, God dammit, why isn’t this thing working? I was like the old man, the dad in the Christmas story. razon rounds, round up because I could and then I’m like, okay, I said I give up, show me the solution. And I was like, Oh, I did backwards. Okay, Ray, start over. So computers do what you tell it to do. And if it doesn’t work, probably it’s because you did something wrong. But that’s why it’s like a puzzle and I think it’s good to learn. So learn something

Jason Tucker 50:01
What do you got? Joe? What do you want to share with us?

Joe Simpson Jr 50:03
Well, it goes back to our conversation. Um, a lot of folks aren’t familiar with the fact that Instagram, we’re in Facebook. Instagram has auto captioning feature within there’s also some tools like threads or caption Max, or clip ematic that allow you to auto generate captions or manually create them over the top of your, your story. So those are good tools to use, especially if you’re on in those arenas. And a lot of people are into Instagram, tik tok, etc. and Facebook. So I recommend those tools. I did

Bridget Willard 50:36
not know that Instagram had auto captioning. Thank you. Yeah, if

Joe Simpson Jr 50:40
you go to your settings, I think it’s under account. Okay. And it’s, I think it’s turned on automatically. But you may want to go back in and tweak them. And again, those tools that I mentioned, allow you to do that.

Bridget Willard 50:51
Yeah, because like, even when I was watching that debate last night on CNN go, because apparently they let you watch it for free or whatever. I couldn’t figure out how to turn the captions on. I have captions on prime I have captions on Netflix, I have captions on YouTube. I’m like, Jason, but like, disability issues, I went to the settings and I couldn’t figure it out. I like the captions on. I couldn’t figure it out on CNN, Oh,

Unknown 51:23

Jason Tucker 51:25
Well, I my Tool or Tip is I’m not gonna change mine, Bridget, I’m not gonna change my logo change. So my Tool or Tip is, is And otter is what we use to do all of our transcription services for for the WPwatercooler network. I like this, because I’m able to kind of push the content into this, and have it already start working on it. While like, soon as the show’s done, I have some automation that takes this makes it into an audio file and sends it over to otter. And then otter starts working on the the the transcription like immediately, and then it gets me to a point where I’m like this where it’s like, Okay, well, I need to go in here and make sure that all of the words that are being used are set up correctly and stuff. And that’s where otter shines in that new. When you have a word like for instance, like we talked about ServerPress, I can actually make sure that ServerPress is spelled correctly and is all set up correctly. Every time I click it actually plays the audio so I can I can listen to it, and then edit it and make sure it’s okay. But otter because of its it actually has AI that’s built into this that it starts to realize after a while like this is what’s been said over and over and over again. I need to make sure that these words are set up correctly. And so it it’s so smart it just slowly but surely it just starts getting all this stuff correctly.

Bridget Willard 53:02
Oh, I thought I didn’t even realize that was a real thing. And then you kind of zoom in for the blind people with 2020 vision. Jason.

Joe Simpson Jr 53:09
That’s a great one. Oh, that’s rad.

Bridget Willard 53:13
Yeah, even capitalized up in ServerPress.

Jason Tucker 53:17
Uh huh. And that’s only because you know, you just keep sending it updates say no, no, no, you said this wrong. No, no, like this right here. Like flash security. It’s like, yeah, it’s not security into this. I think there’s like slash subscribe or something. Oh, yeah. So I wanted to show you this. But the main reason why I wanted to show you is what Joe was talking about. And that’s taking this taking this test and actually exporting it and using it elsewhere. You go and click on this export text section. This drop down is is a godsend because one of them is included speaker names, and include timestamps merge same speaker segments. This is what I do for my you know, for the show. So when I’m done with it, I hit continue and it outputs a txt file. But you can also tell it to do an SRT file. Let me do an SRT file, you can tell it Do you want to include speaker names or not, which is sometimes it’s worth it if you’re, if you have a lot of back and forth going on. Like for instance on this show, we have a lot of back and forth happening. You can also set up the auto linebreaks and have that setup. But once you’re done with this, take this file and upload it to Facebook, upload it to YouTube, upload it to wherever it is that you’re gonna be putting this and now you have a nice clean SRT file that’s good to go and you don’t have it’s going to match exactly the way everything was when it was spoken. So yeah, you know, take a look at the different ones. You know, Joe was mentioning quite a few different ones. Here’s the one that I was using. Bridget you were talking about using Timmy I I you know I’ve used rev like There’s a whole bunch of them. Anytime a human gets involved in it, it costs you more money. But if you want to have a human actually do this, you could actually tell it, like, I want you to have a human go through and do this thing and set it up first. So yeah, take a look at them and see what’s what’s good. And I think what you know, what we’ve been, we’ve been kind of harping on this whole episode, is we’ve changed like, everything, everything about the way in which we’re doing our business has changed. And if you can spend that extra little bit of money or a little bit of time, or a little bit of energy, you could essentially have some content that’s built in a different way. Like it could be, you know, you just did spoken word. And now you can take that spoken word and turn it into actual text. That’s just good for SEO, it’s good for business, it’s good for people finding your stuff. And if they have some type of accessibility that they need to work through, at least they’re gonna have the correct way of being able to consume your content. Yeah, just do it. Just to you’re sitting at you’re sitting at home and and how you might as well do it. So just do it. If you spent that much time building this stuff out, and putting these things together, just do it. I mean, Bridget, was recording videos on Instagram that were like, you know, two minutes long. But she spent the 10 minutes to go and type in all the words that she was saying, or she sent it to a service to have it, do it for her. Or like that’s talking about, you got people that are on Tick Tock point to be able to have their voice heard, and being set and actually be read and they’ve thought you know what, no one’s listening to my stuff. I should probably, you know, actually type in these words, so somebody will actually read it. So I don’t know, I think I think it’s, it’s well worth it to spend the extra time to do it. And if you do it, I think you’re probably gonna be better off for it. Definitely. Bridget, you got anything else here? Before we we get to wrap it up?

Bridget Willard 57:00
I do. I I’m really proud of my little Beaver Builder video. Like, the thing is that I Rhonda designs my site, but then because she already made a landing page for my book, it was easy for me to go into Beaver Builder, and then duplicate the template, and then have all those things ready for my other book and do it myself. I really feel like even if you don’t always have somebody building your, you know, may partner with a designer, even if you use Beaver Builder, and then get it done. So it’s done right so that you can do things on your own. And if you want to see that tutorial, it’s on my YouTube channel, which is very hard to find. And yeah, I mean, it’s only 18 minutes. But yeah, I’ve really was proud of that. And I hope that people pay designers because your sites look terrible, just like mine did. Hey, it was a hard lesson to learn. You have another set of eyes that she goes, this is to get in again. Now she said this is good. And then she was like, but it’s all about you and the stuff you do with your customer. And she goes I’m just saying this to you and look, I’m like, Yeah, you’re right. You need another set of eyes sometimes.

Jason Tucker 58:31
Oh my goodness. Alrighty, well, thank you very much Joe for hanging out with us. Really. Bridget obviously really appreciates it as well. Here’s our outro talk to you all later. You can help us out over to over there, fine folks that helped us out. We are an audio podcast, as well as a video on YouTube and Facebook. We also push this out onto Twitter. So feel free to go and look at all the offerings that we have there in various ways. Thank you very much for hanging out with us today. We appreciate it.

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