Jason Tucker
WPwatercooler Episode number 457- A reusable block by any other name. I’m Jason Tucker, go to my website at Jason Tucker blog, where I do a bunch of fun stuff over
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
[singing]
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
What a cooler! A rose, a block, a lot.
Jason Cosper
Jason Cosper.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
And you all know who it is. It’s your boy, Jason Cosper, aka Fat Mullenwig, back at it again on the world’s most influential
Sé Reed
[laughing]
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
What rhymes with rose?
Jason Tucker
there.
Sé Reed
He does stuff. He does do stuff.
Jason Tucker
If you’re so inclined, you don’t want to watch us, you can do that over there.
Sé Reed
I’m Sé Reed, I do stuff too!
Jason Tucker
And you can come hang out with us in discord in the text version of the show.
Sé Reed
All up in the make these days. @SayReadMedia on all the things.
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
Watch us.
Jason Tucker
If you will. Go subscribe to that podcast.
Jason Cosper
WordPress podcast. Tucker just said, not it.
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
I mean, you wanna watch us.
Jason Tucker
If you’re, if you’re so inclined, you don’t want to watch us. You can do that over there and you can come hang out with us in discord in the
Sé Reed
You wanna watch us because you wanna,
Jason Tucker
text version of the show, if you will.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Sounds like you’re making some work for yourself.
Sé Reed
I think it’d be really funny to do like a time-lapse of all of the years of like my different hairstyles. Like when it’s wet. Like when my hair’s wet and then dries.
Jason Tucker
(laughing) Right here.
Sé Reed
Okay, yeah. Yeah, he’s like.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I feel like there’s some people in the audience
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Sé Reed
who could do that. I don’t know, just maybe.
Jason Tucker
Courtney.
Sé Reed
Courtney’s on the phone.
Courtney Robertson
Hello. Good. I am just back from WordCamp Montclair as my shirt would represent today.
Jason Tucker
Hey Courtney, how you doing today?
Sé Reed
Hello, hello. (indistinct)
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
That’s right, exactly.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. Hey, Joss. Yeah. It was delightful. So it takes place on this college campus that’s
Sé Reed
Yoss knew it was him. Host, host.
Jason Tucker
[LAUGH]
Sé Reed
Host.
Jason Tucker
>> How’s?
Jason Cosper
us.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
How was Montclair? (indistinct)
Courtney Robertson
a journalism school, and the students have to do so many hours of broadcast as part of
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Nice.
Sé Reed
[PAUSE]
Courtney Robertson
their program. So we have production quality gear recording at Montclair. And so fantastic
Jason Tucker
Nice.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
facility. It was a nice camp in terms of size was still pretty small, a good mixture of
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
different types of backgrounds. It is, Montclair, New Jersey is as close to New York City as
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
New Jersey can get. Yeah, suburbs of the city, but in Jersey. Northern Jersey, technically.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Hmm, so it’s like para-New York.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
[laughs] Okay, so that’s actually funny because that’s a good segue.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I can make anything a segue, but that is a good segue. It’s kind of New York, it’s kind of New Jersey,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
just like we’re going to kind of be in Washington, D.C.
Courtney Robertson
Yep.
Sé Reed
or kind of in Maryland for WordCamp US this year. And that leads us right into the conversation about nomenclature
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And naming, that is, uh, reusable word camps, yes.
Jason Tucker
Reusable word camps.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Is that what we’re talking about? (laughing)
Sé Reed
[laughs]
Jason Tucker
(laughing)
Sé Reed
Actually, I mean, there’s, there’s a whole conversation
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
to be had about whether a word camp by any other type of word camp is still a word camp. Like, what is a word camp? Because there’s a whole dialogue, uh,
Jason Cosper
It…
Sé Reed
and fresh new word camps happening.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But, yeah, different show, future show.
Jason Cosper
Future show.
Sé Reed
Uh, but this one is, you know, we definitely,
Courtney Robertson
[Pause]
Sé Reed
There are some other things I do want to hit on other than this particular topic, but I think that
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
[PAUSE]
Sé Reed
the shift from reusable blocks to synced patterns
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
is really notable for a lot of One and I’ll just hit mine and then we can talk about it more but just a one is that naming
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
Is important and having to rename things later
Courtney Robertson
>> It is.
Sé Reed
complicated. So I’d love to get into that. And then also, you
Jason Tucker
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Courtney Robertson
>> Yep.
Jason Cosper
– Mm-hmm.
Jason Tucker
I would agree with that.
Courtney Robertson
>> Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
know, patterns and blocks, like specifically, like I’d like to talk about like, that we’ve actually mentioned on this show
Jason Tucker
[ Laughter ]
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
before, like we’ve talked about, wait, is that a pattern? Or is that a block? Or is that a template part? Wait, are those all the same thing? Not quite sure. So anyway, those are my
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
And what’s the difference between them? Yes.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
two things that I want to hit on today. If anyone else, if anyone wants to start on those or
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
– Yeah, actually, I am going to bring, to kind of set the context for things. I actually
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
amend it, please let me know. Or let us know. Please, please go ahead, is what I should say. (audio distorts)
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
saw a tweet today that I will share here in the chat that I thought was really on par. Jamie, who is Poodle Press, known YouTuber, which we’re on right now. Hey, Jamie, if you’re
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
watching. Jamie shared on Twitter, the topic was over
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
there, we’re not going down this rabbit hole of the topic, but
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
should we call it Gutenberg? And should we refer to things as Gutenberg anymore? And Jamie shared? Yes, it was like within
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
This is a current tweet? [INAUDIBLE]
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
the last day. And so the argument was, please stop
Jason Tucker
[ Applause ]
Courtney Robertson
calling it that unless you’re referring to the plugin. And
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
then Jamie, the YouTuber swings in with some SEO terms around
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
well, here is why we continue to call it that. And to some
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
SEO terms that are about this. So it got me thinking also about how we name other things in WordPress and how that terminology evolves or changes over time. Yes, yes. And how we
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Site editor, full-site editor. (laughs)
Courtney Robertson
need to be thoughtful about our terminology from the absolute beginning and not just change
Sé Reed
(indistinct)
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I don’t know honestly,
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
it on a whim or change it because somebody thought it was a good idea to change it down the road, because we have this entire ecosystem surrounding us that makes the search engine
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
terms that people look for that should bring them to WordPress.org to find the information
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
they need. And, oh, how do we get out of this, say? So.
Jason Tucker
(laughs)
Sé Reed
Like, this is, this is, this is so, there’s so many places
Jason Tucker
[ Pause ]
Sé Reed
in which this is an issue, like, and, and it’s not just,
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
(laughs) Time, time is weird.
Sé Reed
so here’s something that’s also worthy of note. The switch to, and Courtney and I were actually talking
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
about this, was this last week or this week? I don’t even remember. Back and forth, yeah, time.
Courtney Robertson
(laughs)
Sé Reed
Back and forth when it was, it was being announced.
Courtney Robertson
Yep.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And Courtney, you were like, wait, is this happening? Wait, is this, I guess this is happening.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Oh, so now they’re this? Because the process for changing the name,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
which has been official, well is, is being officially renamed in 6.3, right?
Courtney Robertson
Right.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Which is currently in beta two, which is beta one,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah, so I can explain that one,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
but don’t worry about that. Not relevant, but don’t worry about it.
Courtney Robertson
but it’s not relevant right now. Move on.
Sé Reed
But so 6.3 is going to have synced patterns
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
instead of reusable blocks.
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Sé Reed
Now reusable blocks have been in there since five, since Gutenberg or since early.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
[Muffled speaking]
Sé Reed
Or was it that recent?
Courtney Robertson
I want to say it was probably around five nine, maybe five eight.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Five eight.
Sé Reed
Huh.
Courtney Robertson
I mean, I don’t, it wasn’t, it was not terribly long ago.
Sé Reed
Okay, well, regardless, it’s been out
Jason Cosper
[Pause]
Courtney Robertson
I would definitely say not before five six.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
So late fives.
Sé Reed
and the interesting thing of note is that there have been many conversations about naming in the WordPress space,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
including the conversation that around the wayfinder or command palette or search bar that shows you stuff
Jason Cosper
Bye-bye.
Courtney Robertson
Yup.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
or potential new place for AI commands.
Jason Tucker
(laughs)
Sé Reed
I like really don’t understand,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I have not really, there’s so much in that,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
that I have not even gone down that rabbit hole,
Courtney Robertson
Ok.
Sé Reed
But I do know that it was a dialogue within the community
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Yep.
Sé Reed
because one of the members of the marketing team, who is also an onomatician, just clarification,
Courtney Robertson
>> Yeah, and I’ve shared the link for that.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
posted a proposal to call that the Wayfinder and posted it in, I believe, GitHub, right? In the Gutenberg GitHub repo, right?
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
– Yeah. – Okay.
Courtney Robertson
And then also cross-posted it to the Full Site Editing Outreach channel and a few other
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Right. So that is, that dialogue was actually getting a lot of traction from within the
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
places. Actually, I’m going to halt in there and interject. At Montclair, I can’t hear
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
community and not just, you know, the make, the small make community that’s contributing.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
This was getting some interaction from outside of in the larger ecosystem, which I’m very
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
[PAUSE]
Sé Reed
glad about because it was just like we’re gonna just randomly name things a new name.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
I gave a talk called “We Are They” and it’s about contributing to WordPress and sometimes that can be low lift things. People get intimidated about GitHub and the conversation that we’re
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Women.
Courtney Robertson
having right now was a conversation that was also happening in GitHub. Please think of
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
it as the discussion that’s happening was on par with support forums in terms of the functionality. No, yes, it’s it this. Yep, yep. So a lot of a
Sé Reed
It’s like blog comments.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
You don’t have to code to be in GitHub.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
You’re just commenting your thoughts, like literally. Get in there.
Courtney Robertson
lot of the way that dot org teams are using GitHub is kind
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Thank you.
Courtney Robertson
of like Trello, and kind of like support forums where it’s just
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
interacting back and forth on the issue. So voices most
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
definitely were welcomed and encouraged on this post. And Yeah, there you go. I will be the first to say, I will be the first to say to say and others that I
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Get in there. See, that’s why you want to watch the live feed.
Jason Tucker
(laughs) [ Pause ]
Courtney Robertson
am proud of the way that the community came in to comment on that particular GitHub issue, that it
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
was respectful, even if disagreeable. We haven’t always seen that in the WordPress space previously.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
So that was an example of a lot of people weighing in that was actually quite good in the way that that they worked out the ideas that were there.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Good conversations.
Sé Reed
And I mean, yeah, and that’s, I mean,
Courtney Robertson
[ Pause ]
Sé Reed
that’s the way it’s supposed to work because we are bringing in perspectives
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
from different areas.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
If we’re only looking at this small group of perspectives, it’s easy to come up with solutions that work for that small group. But some of the people who were commenting,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
like hosts, our listener who’s listening right now,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
was commenting on the translatability of something like Wayfinder,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
which is a big part of WordPress’s global positioning,
Jason Cosper
Yeah.
Courtney Robertson
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Sé Reed
but also a big part of phase four,
Jason Cosper
Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
which is phase four of the Gutenberg lifecycle, which is internationalization. Yeah.
Jason Cosper
Yeah.
Sé Reed
And making translation just kind of a core part
Courtney Robertson
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
of WordPress. And so it’s easy to get distracted by English, honestly, because it’s happening and it’s easy to,
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
like, just like it’s easy to keep going
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
and not have accessibility questions come up, it’s easy to keep going and not have, how does this translate into another language come up?
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Yeah, you know, I’m thinking specifically about in 6.3 when they change the name from
Courtney Robertson
Right.
Sé Reed
And I’m so grateful that there are people in our community who are speaking up and saying, there’s no translation for that in Spanish,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
let alone XYZ language, and pointing out some of the struggles
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Sé Reed
that people have already
Jason Tucker
(silence)
Sé Reed
with translating components of WordPress.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Sé Reed
Right, this is a lot of work.
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
reusable blocks to sync patterns, all of the translations that will then need to be changed, all, all the places, yeah, all the places that reusable blocks are
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
being reused for, for lack of a better, no, I just wanted to make the pun.
Sé Reed
[laughs]
Jason Tucker
[Sniffling]
Jason Cosper
I’m sorry.
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
Yeah, it’s fine. It’s a good pun. We got it. I love the pun.
Jason Cosper
Um, yeah.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
So for all the places that, that, that it’s being used, like every single language pack. It now needs to be modified. The community now needs to play catch up
Sé Reed
Right.
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
Or even take a, what, which happened with the Wayfinder
Jason Cosper
because they couldn’t thread the needle and get the naming right the first time.
Sé Reed
because it hadn’t been introduced yet.
Courtney Robertson
Right.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
[ Pause ]
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So it was proposed, right? It’s being proposed in the Gutenberg plugin, which is not the same thing as being proposed
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
in a WordPress core release,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
which is what we talked about last week, the Gutenberg WordPress, you know, where Gutenberg goes, WordPress shall follow.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So this conversation about the Wayfinder happening in Gutenberg, which is where the naming is starting.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And then that naming is going to be carried through into WordPress. We’re not going to…
Courtney Robertson
[Silence while everyone is getting their questions answered]
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Well, we might, but we should not be renaming things once they get from Gutenberg to WordPress.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
We should… This is part of that, “Where’s the process actually starting?”
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
(silence)
Sé Reed
Concept process that we’re trying to figure out.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But the reusable blocks and sync patterns change was not done in that context.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
It did not have a public conversation about should we change this?
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
There are issues that have been brought up and it has been discussed in the past.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
So there are some threads, including, I believe, originally when the Gutenberg plugin first
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
was being proposed and reusable blocks were being proposed, they talked about some of the different naming things.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But the interesting thing in this instance
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
is that they essentially– they being whomever made this decision, which I don’t know actually who it is– so the 6.3 release squad, I suppose,
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
trying to name the they’s so that we
Courtney Robertson
So, I did put the GitHub issue, I did put the GitHub issues into our private chat that’s
Sé Reed
know who we’re talking about. So it’s just that, doing everything. OK.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
here in the show. The first one is to the terminology of Wayfinder versus the second
Sé Reed
(audio distorts) (audio distorts)
Courtney Robertson
GitHub link is to the proposal to rename things. And that proposal initiated in 2021. I usually
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Right.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
will scan Gutenberg issues most weekdays. I do a skim over the headlines of what new
Sé Reed
(audio distorts)
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
[INAUDIBLE]
Courtney Robertson
issues have been filed since the last weekday and pay attention to the ones I would like
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
to follow further. I wasn’t doing that in August of 2021. So that wasn’t high on my
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
radar these days to then be able to bring it in. And it looks like that conversation
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
was taking some shape early then. And I’m not like it. Yeah. Yeah. Ann’s amazing. Knowing
Sé Reed
Yeah, it was, but it was calling synced blocks rather
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
than reusable blocks.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And then in March of this year, Ann, who is basically the main full site editing guru–
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I don’t ever use that word, but let’s be real.
Jason Tucker
(silence)
Sé Reed
That’s what they are. Yeah, like the linchpin of full site.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
The conversation in March touched upon,
Courtney Robertson
what’s happening in a release. Anne. [PAUSE]
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
in that particular GitHub ticket, again, in Gutenberg,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
touched on changing the patterns should be involved in that.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But then that conversation did not go any further. So basically it’s like a conversation that was happening
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
in the past and had a little bit of updates over the past, you know, a few months ago, and then was just subsumed into WordPress, into 6.3. And I don’t know if we have tracked that particular renaming path, but did you, what’s your question, Tucker?
Jason Tucker
Yeah, what is a pattern?
Sé Reed
Tucker, this is the other question. (laughing)
Jason Tucker
So let me just let me just let me just let me paint you a picture.
Jason Cosper
(laughing)
Sé Reed
This is an existential question.
Courtney Robertson
Think about in sewing, sewing, sewing patterns. We’re sinking. Sinking. Sinking. Sinking.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Let me paint you a picture real quick.
Sé Reed
[laughs]
Jason Tucker
So I was under the impression that a pattern was a collection of blocks that were brought together in a way that allows for you to be able to just drag them over and drop them and do it.
Sé Reed
Yeah.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
And now we have sinking ones and we have non sinking ones.
Sé Reed
It’s essentially built in– Okay, so it’s actually really interesting.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Like I understand those two, but like what’s a pattern because the pattern is a collection of them.
Sé Reed
So this is actually really interesting, and it actually touches on a component of partially synced patterns as well. Yeah.
Courtney Robertson
Okay.
Sé Reed
>> Yeah. Yes. It is an array of items.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
It’s like an array of items versus a single item, which would be a block. And I don’t want to get stuck in array ’cause you know there’s.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
As an array is a single thing, array is a collection of things, the pattern is a collection of blocks.
Jason Tucker
Right? Yeah.
Courtney Robertson
[PAUSE]
Sé Reed
It is interesting because,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
and this is something that I would have liked to dialogue about before it got renamed because, yes, you can have a synced pattern, but you can also have just one block that is reusable.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And if you have just one block that is reusable,
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
it’s not a pattern. So taking away that name, essentially, I don’t know what you then call that thing.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Like I don’t, you have.
Jason Tucker
One crow is not a murder.
Sé Reed
It’s just a pro, it’s just a pro all by itself.
Courtney Robertson
Although, let’s add to the complexity, say, I picked up while going through our friend
Jason Tucker
[ pause ]
Sé Reed
Sadly.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Morten Randhendriksen’s WordPress videos, which he is no longer making, but I was going through some of those several years ago, soon after the reusable blocks came out, and Morten
Sé Reed
Yeah, so it’s Morton’s fault.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
demonstrated basically a hacky way to put multiple blocks into the reusable blocks. So like, it was possible, but we only called them a reusable block, intending for it to
Sé Reed
Dang it.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Yeah, so I’m not saying that patterns and reusable patterns should not exist.
Courtney Robertson
be a singular, but you can hack around with it and make it multiple.
Jason Tucker
(silence)
Courtney Robertson
Right.
Sé Reed
I’m not saying that at all.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I am saying that they are different components and you can have a singular reusable block,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
which to me is a very handy tool to pull in
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
where you’re like, here’s my bio block
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
or here’s the, you know, check out our discord that we could pull into the bottom of every post or, you know, whatever that happens to be without getting into the conversation
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
of should that be a template part or whatever.
Jason Tucker
I’m not saying this needs to be a bunch or a bushel or a party or I don’t know like things things that we have
Sé Reed
A party of blocks.
Jason Tucker
multiple multiple items in a thing
Sé Reed
[laughs]
Courtney Robertson
Yep.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I think pattern itself, and Courtney, maybe you can speak to this.
Jason Tucker
But like I just the idea of pattern and then us doing these other things to the pattern and then like you said
Courtney Robertson
Yep. All right.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So I don’t actually know where the first instance of pattern came about. Patterns are essentially layouts, right?
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
That is what they are in a more, in a builder format, like in a builder language. It’s like you import a layout or a module that has stuff in it, but or layout has modules in it, right?
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Just like a pattern has blocks in it
Courtney Robertson
And it gets mixed up with templates because the page builders would call the layouts templates.
Sé Reed
I think that pattern is confusing and I think that it doesn’t translate well to people who are using WordPress like
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Business people they’re like pattern. It’s a very designy tool. It’s a very term. It’s a very like creative
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Yeah, it’s all right.
Jason Tucker
And then we could say blueprint.
Courtney Robertson
But we have a different term we have a different meaning for what’s a template. Oh, words are
Jason Tucker
Are we just going to rename everything?
Sé Reed
So WordPress is and then we have templates and template parts.
Courtney Robertson
are hard. Words are hard. Yes. Yes. I mean, can we just headless is looking awfully appealing
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So it’s not just templates because you can have a template part that’s part of a bunch of templates. But then can you have multiple patterns inside
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
your parts with reusable blocks inside them that are partially? >> Just like saying all the words.
Jason Tucker
Is that what’s going to end up having to happen? Just so we can make sure it’s all translatable?
Sé Reed
It’s like a butchery of like, I want to do like a pig diagram.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
with all these parts laying everywhere. So here’s the thing. Yeah. So patterns. The Alt
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
You know, they have like the diagrams of like pig with the ground and the chuck and the
Courtney Robertson
and brown ones. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So patterns were created with the intent that if there’s
Sé Reed
rib eye or whatever it is.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
an image there, you swap the image and put your own in. If there’s a paragraph of text,
Jason Tucker
[ Pause ]
Courtney Robertson
You take out the preloaded and you put your own in.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And currently there is no, once you place a pattern,
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Sé Reed
there is no tie back to the original pattern. They basically dissolve into individual blocks. We just spent 10 minutes saying words, so there’s that.
Courtney Robertson
Except that if you’re now synchronizing them. I will say we’ve got nine minutes. One of the issues that I found right before we went live. Yes. So right — okay. I have a GitHub issue to go log right after this, because if someone
Jason Cosper
What is a podcast but saying words?
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Courtney Robertson
goes to use a reusable block right now in the beta version, I believe that they should
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
[ Pause ]
Courtney Robertson
still find where that has moved to. And it is. So if you were to — because you have
Sé Reed
Is it just gone now?
Courtney Robertson
to go put it in from a pattern. And then the experience of — yeah. Yeah. So if you’re
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Because there’s a new patterns tab within the site editor. Now if you’re not using full site editing templates or themes, you don’t have to worry about this. Wait, oh my God, because if you’re using, oh, right.
Courtney Robertson
actually wrong, if you’re using it inside of a post or a page, you do, say. So — no.
Sé Reed
So the patterns aren’t just, oh God.
Courtney Robertson
No. Yeah. Yeah. This is all. That’s fantastic. Let’s see if we can help with the confusion.
Jason Tucker
(laughs)
Jason Cosper
I, you know, you know, I, I came into this with so many questions and now I have so many more.
Sé Reed
I just can’t stop laughing.
Jason Tucker
[laughing]
Sé Reed
[laughing]
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I just can’t stop laughing. [laughing]
Courtney Robertson
I usually like to help with confusing things. Can I — right. So this is me caring about
Sé Reed
I’m gonna, like, mute myself because I’m just literally over here, like, laughing and I don’t even know what to do about it. I just can’t keep it together today. [sighs]
Jason Tucker
Wow. Yeah, I don’t know.
Sé Reed
Courtney, can you explain it? I really, like, this is, I don’t, like, at what point are we, like,
Jason Tucker
And are they reusable?
Sé Reed
caring about the people using the software. I don’t, I like–
Jason Cosper
Yeah. X.
Sé Reed
Oh.
Courtney Robertson
using the software, what is the experience of someone that has now become so used to
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Is it moving?
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
the reusable block and they don’t know that that feature has changed and when they go to use their existing reusable block, what is that experience for them going to be in
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
6.3 and how will they find where what they had in reusable blocks has moved to now? And
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
So I will be making a GitHub ticket about this one,
Sé Reed
gonna like pick up and their block will now be in the synced patterns land. This is like
Courtney Robertson
a Gutenberg specific, Gutenberg issue.
Sé Reed
happening right now. This is like a problem. But wait, this is in, hold on, this is in
Jason Cosper
(Video playing)
Courtney Robertson
Okay, I’m having a hard time with my words. My words are having a hard time. Gutenberg issue, not a GitHub ticket. Why did I say that? I will make one of those when our show ends
Jason Tucker
Contributing is easy! [laughter] Wow. Wow, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun.
Courtney Robertson
so that it gets fixed.
Sé Reed
three not in Gutenberg.
Courtney Robertson
But you have to log it in the right place.
Sé Reed
You know it’s no one, I mean it’s like people are like, I don’t understand why
Jason Tucker
Contributing is easy! [laughs] Wow.
Courtney Robertson
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So. All right. So, I’m going to go ahead and share my screen.
Sé Reed
people don’t contribute more. It’s so easy, it’s just so easy. You pick up and then you just contribute,
Jason Cosper
>> Oh, no, I understand. I understand completely.
Sé Reed
you know, like there’s nothing left to do. Whitney is like literally one of the most knowledgeable people in
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
entire WordPress ecosystem and she is literally sitting here
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
going, that’s true facts, she’s literally sitting here saying,
Courtney Robertson
I could also go to the — yeah.
Sé Reed
I think I should file that there, I’m not, I guess,
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Wow.
Sé Reed
perhaps, like, she writes release summaries for every release and still it is not conclusive, which is not your fault, it is the project’s fault, so I’m just like.
Jason Cosper
[no audio]
Jason Tucker
Wow.
Courtney Robertson
>> Well, I’m going to log it and stick it in front of some of the release leads that
Sé Reed
Oh my God, so I mean this is happening like this is in 6/3.
Courtney Robertson
are like, oh, yeah, we should fix that. Let them tell me if I put it in the right place or where I should go.
Jason Tucker
Wow.
Courtney Robertson
Tell me where to go.
Sé Reed
This is converting, so we’re still unclear on where the blocks
Courtney Robertson
>> Mhmm.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
or the existing reusable blocks are going to go.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
And no matter what, if it’s just one block that’s reusable,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. You have given me such a good idea. I’m going to give you a little bit of a hint.
Sé Reed
it’s still a pattern.
Jason Tucker
(Pause.)
Sé Reed
And then I want to just, sorry, go ahead.
Jason Cosper
Do you think, okay, no, no, no, please finish your thoughts.
Sé Reed
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Oh, I was just going to–
Jason Cosper
Okay.
Sé Reed
I was going to bring in a new thing, so I think you should say your thing.
Jason Cosper
Um, do you think that we are going to end up with a plugin like the classic
Sé Reed
Yeah. No.
Jason Cosper
editor that will be called reusable blocks that will just restore the
Sé Reed
I think– I think you should make it.
Jason Cosper
functionality back to the way people like it? Because I feel. Yeah
Courtney Robertson
a good idea. Cosper, let’s like I want to be a plugin admin and have a plugin of my
Sé Reed
I think you should just make it.
Jason Cosper
Yeah Yeah
Sé Reed
Courtney Robertson
own in the repo, and thank you for that idea. Ah, yeah.
Jason Tucker
Are we going to also give this to Drupal so they can do the same?
Jason Cosper
Right
Jason Tucker
That’s what I want to know. Yeah.
Sé Reed
Well, luckily for Drupal, they probably haven’t, like, adopted it so much yet, and because it’s not going into 6.3, right? So I think that, wait, is it in Gutenberg and in 6.3?
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Sé Reed
Or, see, this is, this is why we talked about this last week, this Gutenberg WordPress thing, because it’s not clear. It’s not clear at all where the changes are actually being supposed to be implemented.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Like if Gutenberg does a thing, which then goes out to the greater ecosystem, the greater Gutenberg ecosystem, Drupal or Tumblr or whatever,
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to give a quick plug in there for a plugin. James try on and crew
Sé Reed
then we should probably not be renaming those concepts within WordPress.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So that means that Gutenberg is kind of the final frontier for that. and we will just meet, like, otherwise we’re separating ourselves again from the, what’s, you know,
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
kind of that core development, and we can’t,
Jason Tucker
There you go, Cosper. Okay.
Sé Reed
we can’t be doing that, can’t be doing that.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Courtney Robertson
run this one, missing menu items, and it puts things back like links to where the navigation menus are. Yeah, so I’m going to take a wild guess that James will be on if Core and/or
Jason Tucker
There you go, Cosper.
Jason Cosper
Okay.
Courtney Robertson
Gutenberg do not fix the issue in a timely manner that links to get to the reasonable
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
of walks will be made visible once again.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
No, no.
Sé Reed
Well, so I mean, like I said, there’s a couple of problems here. One is, we don’t know how to like,
Courtney Robertson
(chuckles)
Sé Reed
like, there’s problems with the actual implementation, like where the blocks going
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Hmm, mm-hmm.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
not clear to that naming concept of it was this long term, like, where where is that decision?
Courtney Robertson
Mm-hmm.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
This is a problem across the project is that like, some discussion is happening, discussion is
Courtney Robertson
Yeah.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
happening, discussion is happening. And suddenly, there’s a decision that is not logged in the same place as the discussion. And that is where the gap happens. This is what happened with
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
the sustainability team being discussed, the proposals being discussed, and then all of a sudden, boom, it’s a team. And the team itself, the initiative, did not even know
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
what they were going to do with their new mandate that included two huge other components,
Jason Tucker
[ Pause ]
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
social sustainability and economic sustainability, that had not even remotely been part of their discussion and was not part of their team proposal. So in between the conversation that
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
was happening about naming, should we name the sustainability team, the sustainability team,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. Great.
Sé Reed
if it is only about environmental sustainability, right? Because that then is, you know, basically
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
[SILENCE]
Sé Reed
cutting out these two other massive components about sustainability, social sustainability and
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
and economic sustainability.
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And between that discussion, and I know this because I made a comment
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
and before anyone replied to my comment
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and there was no more discussion on that,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
the team was created and given the mandate to do environmental, social and economic sustainability.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But there’s no documentation of that discussion.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I believe that it happened at WordCamp Europe, literally at the table.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and they say they will be documenting that for me at some point. But this gap of discussion, discussion, discussion,
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
and then decision coming from outside is another reason that people struggle with contribution because you can sit there and give your opinion
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
and make your arguments and have a great dialogue.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah, yeah.
Sé Reed
And then it’s like an invisible hand comes in from somewhere and just doesn’t even say, well, thanks for your input,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
but we think that doesn’t make sense because of this.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
It’s just done and the conversation is just over.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And from an interpersonal perspective that would literally be like walking away in the middle of a conversation and just being like well I’ve decided now bye. You know and it’s it’s very jarring but
Jason Tucker
.
Sé Reed
this is also contributes to the reason that people do not contribute as actively because they take the time to write these I know that, for example, Leslie, whose last name is not Pizza, but her handwriting, that’s basically what it is
Courtney Robertson
Yes. Let’s play that pizza. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Much like a ribbah.
Sé Reed
in my brain. Sim?
Jason Cosper
Leslie Sim.
Sé Reed
Sim.
Jason Cosper
Bye.
Sé Reed
Yeah, I was like, I think it’s Sim.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
You know, does–exactly. Does amazing, amazing comments, makes amazing comments, and really brings a lot of insight to so many of
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
conversations, and then it just disappears. Like they just are decided and those really great points are not, yes, exactly like Aruba
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
as well, those great points are not even brought somewhere else, right?
Courtney Robertson
Yep. That’s a pattern! Oh my gosh! I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.
Sé Reed
They’re not like the discussion is not like, “Okay, well, we’re going to do this now, like
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
with the most viable, what is it? Minimally viable product and then we’ll talk about adding these things later,” which is what I do with websites. Once a client has gotten to a certain point, right, in the launchability of their sites,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
“Okay, we need to do a feature freeze and fix the stuff that’s happening and then we’ll add more stuff later.” It is a pattern of issues. Yeah, and the real problem is, so there’s
Jason Tucker
See, this is a pattern.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
That’s a pattern. Oh, that’s what a pattern is. Yeah. It’s a pattern. It’s a pattern.
Jason Tucker
When you have multiple, multiple issues and you put them together, it’s a pattern of issues. (sniffling)
Courtney Robertson
Here’s a pattern of issues. We used to call it full site editing and global styles. Now
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Now it’s site editor and just styles. Yeah.
Sé Reed
the two problems, the discussions and the decisions are happening in a way that aren’t
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
clear to the community. They’re happening in a discuss, discuss, boom implementation. And then
Courtney Robertson
[PAUSE]
Sé Reed
not outreach, but the rollout of those terminologies, those decisions are not handled
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
well. And I can say that specifically with this, because I know that Courtney does
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
so much of the documentation for training for the releases. You know, you really
Courtney Robertson
Well, I at least find what needs to change.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
to facilitate it.
Courtney Robertson
I will say that. I don’t necessarily create all the content. I at least find what needs
Sé Reed
Right, right. I appreciate you being here and giving support to everyone.
Courtney Robertson
to be changed. Yes. Team. Team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Tucker
You would think that the people… You would think that the people that write books about WordPress would have more to say about this?
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Yeah, I mean, that is exactly what.
Jason Tucker
The people that, like you, where you’re curating these pieces and putting them together and other people are writing them,
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
however you want to describe that whole role, at least that thing is dynamic. But somebody who actually writes a book? Can you imagine?
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
This is why they don’t release new editions very frequently.
Sé Reed
I actually–
Jason Tucker
(laughing)
Sé Reed
You can make those figure out.
Jason Tucker
We’re just waiting for it to flush out a little bit here.
Courtney Robertson
I have heard from the WordPress book authors, if you ask people like Brad, they don’t release the books particularly often because that’s a big rewrite in terms of terminology.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Courtney Robertson
We need glossary.
Sé Reed
I do, I was talking earlier this week about this topic with,
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Glossary, sorry.
Sé Reed
let’s have a glossary topic.
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Sé Reed
I was talking with Nyasha Green about,
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
about the Patterns, who’s the new co-rep for the marketing
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Sé Reed
team. Yes. And hopefully we’ll have on the show here soon. I think we’ve had her before, I can’t remember.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah, yep.
Jason Cosper
Yeah.
Sé Reed
Yeah, we have.
Courtney Robertson
[ Pause ]
Sé Reed
And she does a presentation.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
She’s literally like, you know, presents this at meetups and whatever. And she’s like, I just finished writing out my blocks
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
component.
Jason Tucker
(silence)
Sé Reed
And she’s like, wait, what? I didn’t even hear about this. Like, there’s no notification. She has to change her entire, you know, presentation to not include this component and rework it to include synced patterns and all this new stuff. And like, people could literally be teaching the wrong material, like, immediately.
Courtney Robertson
– This is – – for docs and training, come help us, please.
Sé Reed
Like, as soon as, and this has happened multiple times to me that as soon as a new release is released, all of your materials are totally worthless.
Jason Tucker
Just live in the trunk.
Jason Cosper
I mean, this is– This is, this is Courtney–
Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Yeah.
Courtney Robertson
Docs and training team wildly appreciate that. Also, help test. There is a call for testing
Sé Reed
[ Pause ]
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
for this particular release. Go through that call for testing. Let the test team give them lots of comments and feedback, but the docs and the training team are also working with locale ambassadors like Yoss, and also with over in training, we’re working a lot with
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
Margherita, Pierre-Mario, who is overseeing the India community. We’ve got a lot of contributors
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
that are specifically overseeing locales. So that not only do we have to see Gutenberg
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
is changing this particular thing, I could cross-reference it to that in our materials,
Sé Reed
Courtney Robertson
but then also the locale ambassadors have to look at the versions of that in all of
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Which is for the translation.
Courtney Robertson
the additional languages and now make the same type of change in all the languages.
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
So I am…
Sé Reed
This is not just a one off little like, we’re gonna change it in a code in one
Courtney Robertson
Oh, no. Yeah.
Sé Reed
place and then it’s done. This is a big decision and a big impact for
Courtney Robertson
Yes.
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Sé Reed
something that seems really small.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
But especially because it is not being made, I mean, we’re making it a big deal,
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
but like the decision,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
and I don’t wanna criticize the folks who are in 6.3 ’cause it’s been a wild ride.
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
I just, and I’m not really sure how to solve this problem because we really, we as a WordPress community,
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
as a make community don’t have a lot of standards by which to make these decisions or to say, okay, if we’re gonna rename things,
Courtney Robertson
Yeah, yeah.
Sé Reed
we need to provide some notice.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Yeah.
Sé Reed
We need to say, hey, community,
Jason Tucker
Yep.
Sé Reed
and that’s something the training team has been working to do. But again, everyone’s so completely understaffed that they can barely keep up with the main code
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
and development changes that are happening in 6.3, let alone provide additional notifications about that stuff.
Courtney Robertson
– Yeah.
Sé Reed
And the marketing team could also do that.
Courtney Robertson
And I really appreciate folks,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
However, we are completely understaffed, I should say, and fighting a whole bunch of other side quests.
Jason Tucker
(laughs)
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So, you know, we need you people. If you’re listening to this, we need you. Please come join us. We need you. (audio garbles)
Courtney Robertson
like I gave Jamie the shout out
Jason Tucker
[ Pause ]
Courtney Robertson
at the beginning of this Poodle Press.
Sé Reed
(audio garbles)
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
YouTuber, folks like that that are impacted
Sé Reed
‘Cause those things are out there.
Courtney Robertson
well after we make our decisions about getting that feedback from all the bloggers, all the YouTubers about the impact of the fallout
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
of us renaming the things. I think that’s really important too, not just inside of .org fixing it, which is a big undertaking, but then the way that people refer to it in an ongoing way.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Like it’s not like everyone’s redoing their YouTube content, right?
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I mean, they will, but like they have collections,
Jason Tucker
>> It’s as bad as a book.
Sé Reed
they have course curriculum.
Courtney Robertson
Yeah, yeah.
Sé Reed
Like it’s literally blocks and reusable box
Courtney Robertson
Yeah. So, yeah. I’m just going to go ahead and get started. I’m going to go ahead and
Jason Tucker
>> Yeah.
Sé Reed
has been an adopted component.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And by changing it rather than expanding it,
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
it has created just boatloads, just so much more work for the entire community,
Jason Tucker
Yeah, this is why we made fun of it in our own title of the show is because of the fact
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
the make community, the training team, the docs team, people who use it, agencies, anyone who has any training materials that they’ve written for their clients, all those YouTube videos, like, this is a small change in text
Jason Cosper
Courtney Robertson
document these. I’m going to just go ahead and go to security settings.
Sé Reed
that has a massive change across the ecosystem. [no audio]
Jason Tucker
that it’s going to have to exist anyhow. So we might as well just be wrong. let’s just be wrong from the get go and just call it a real is reusable block. Just, you know, yeah.
Sé Reed
I mean, that’s the– I just– I know we’re running over time, you gotta go, but like for real, it’s still gonna exist. You can’t, the pattern is a group of blocks,
Courtney Robertson
Oh, let’s move on to the ones with wine.
Jason Tucker
That’s wordle.
Jason Cosper
I know that we, I know that we try hard to make shows that are a little more evergreen or whatever,
Sé Reed
then one block is not a pattern or is a square, like how square is a rectangle, even though it’s a square. (indistinct)
Jason Tucker
[laughter]
Sé Reed
(laughs)
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
but I know that we definitely have some episodes there that have just aged like milk. Like,
Jason Tucker
Yep, yep.
Sé Reed
They’re totally useless, exactly.
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
(laughing)
Jason Cosper
Right. Yeah.
Jason Tucker
[laughter]
Sé Reed
– It’s getting better over time.
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Courtney Robertson
Sé Reed
All right, well, we have a lot more to talk about next week
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and the week after and the week after.
Jason Tucker
We sure do.
Sé Reed
Join our Discord.
Courtney Robertson
Thanks as always.
Sé Reed
Come chat with us.
Jason Tucker
Yeah, please do.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Tucker
Here is our outro.
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Hey, listen to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts,
Jason Tucker
row.
Courtney Robertson
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, TILBids. I learned about that too. It’ll be Dev Branch next week on the first. Subscribe, join our
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Discord, come chat with us, hit us up on the social media. We want your input.
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