EP30 – Block and Awesome

Jason Tucker
This is episode number 30 of DevBranch, blocks and awesome.

Sé Reed
Locking awesome. Locking awesome. Hey, I’m Sé Reed, make WordPress, teach WordPress,

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
you preach WordPress at Sé Reed Media and all the things. TBD?

Jason Cosper
And y’all know who does it’s your boy Jason Cosper, AKA TBD. And yeah, back at it again.

Sé Reed
Is that why he wasn’t first?

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Tucker Tucker really Tucker really messed with us

Jason Tucker
[Pause for audience response]

Jason Cosper
because he was supposed to be off today, but now he’s not off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sé Reed
I was so confused. I was like, wait, why is my name?

Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jos Velasco
Thank you.

Jason Cosper
He he generated the intro video weeks ago

Sé Reed
(laughs)

Jason Tucker
[Pause for audience response]

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
We planned ahead for this one, a rare time.

Jason Tucker
Right?

Jason Cosper
when we thought that he would still be… Yeah, yeah, I thought I was going to be the substitute

Sé Reed
(laughs)

Jason Tucker
Oh yeah. HelloilläGaming.

Jason Cosper
teacher yet again, but Tucker said, “Absolutely not.” So it would not be a water cooler show

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
unless the intro, which we’ve been doing for 10 years now, wasn’t a little bit… Okay, 11,

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Sé Reed
11, 11. I actually just got into a discussion about that

Jason Cosper
wasn’t a little bit fuzzy.

Sé Reed
on the social networks, formerly known as Twitter,

Jason Cosper
Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Sé Reed
about what the oldest podcast is in the WordPress space.

Jason Cosper
But, hey, it’s such a good setup, # XXL Show.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And I was like, it’s us, it’s us. And Adam Silver of Kitchen Sink WP was like, no, it’s me.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
When we, as a group came together,

Sé Reed
And then I was like, no, it’s us. But then he found someone else. It’s actually some Dustin something has a podcast called Your Website Engineer Since 2010.

Jason Cosper
I didn’t think for one second I would do this instead of four minutes,

Jason Tucker
Yes.

Jason Cosper
and I wouldn’t know if it would go one minute.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Yeah, sure. Sure, sure, sure. But hey, hey, everybody, we have we have a we

Sé Reed
We are not the oldest.

Jason Tucker
I never claimed that we were the oldest.

Sé Reed
But yeah, but he now works for Automatic,

Jason Tucker
I definitely did not come out. Hello, audio listeners.

Sé Reed
so we’re the most independent.

Jason Cosper
have a guest.

Sé Reed
Oh, me too.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
You wouldn’t know it, though, if you were here, if you weren’t.

Jason Tucker
It’s not just the three of us today. But rather, we have a fourth. Cosper, give us a little intro.

Sé Reed
Take it away.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Rest in heart, Gloria.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Well, I think I’m actually gonna let Host give his own intro, but Host, one of my

Sé Reed
Although DreamHose is awesome, I can see that.

Jason Cosper
co-workers over at DreamHost, a job that I have that I do not talk very much about

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
because I like to keep my work and personal life separate, but Host is

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
someone who… Oh, I… Yeah. Yeah.

Sé Reed
I’m happy to advocate.

Jason Cosper
But host, host is somebody who I get to work with day in and day out.

Sé Reed
I use DreamPress across the board. This is not a paid thing. I get no affiliate anything.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I just use it a lot. So that’s. Oh.

Jason Cosper
And, uh, we’re, I’m excited to, to kind of introduce him to y’all.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
He’s hanging out in our, uh, in our chat, uh, our discord. So, uh, if chat seems a little, uh, extra empty today over on YouTube, that’s why.

Sé Reed
I also.

Jos Velasco
[ Laughter ] Yeah.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
because he’s not chiming in occasionally over there. Hosts, how about you introduce yourself?

Sé Reed
Wait, wait, wait, wait, I just also, real quick,

Jason Cosper
[AUDIO OUT]

Sé Reed
I just also want to say the host is the,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
is responsible for my social network, formally known as Twitter’s profile picture. So if you enjoy that profile picture, you can thank him. Okay, yes. Please introduce yourself.

Jos Velasco
So well, thank you very much. And this is actually like the first time that I have been on a podcast like in English because my main language is Spanish and I travel all the way from Mexico to Bogota to be here with you guys via StreamYard. I’m very excited

Jason Cosper
Yeah

Jason Tucker
That’s awesome. That’s cool. I’m going to go ahead and close it out. I’m going to go

Jason Cosper
Yeah

Sé Reed
>> Wait, you went from Mexico to Bogota to be here today?

Jos Velasco
Yeah, so all my career is around WordPress Watercooler, this is the kind of obsessed I am

Sé Reed
Oh, you moved to Bogota so that you could work for DreamHost.

Jos Velasco
Yeah, so I can be with you. It is. It actually is.

Sé Reed
Oh, that’s amazing.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So basically when Cosper says the world’s most influential podcast, you know, we’re

Jason Tucker
It is. Dave, we didn’t have to say it ourselves. That’s awesome.

Sé Reed
talking like substantial. Yay. Yay. Well, anyway, I’m actually really excited about today’s topic because I think that this

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
is a really gray area. It’s kind of a, it’s just a weird space, right?

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
It’s always like the transitional spaces.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I’ve been talking a lot about this. Like, for example, speaking of like Mexico, I’ve been talking a lot about border arts and the art that is created and the art installations that take place along the border of Mexico.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
like Mexico and California and it’s just, and Arizona also. Super interesting when you start talking about like

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
that transition and even not looking at any of the like political aspects of it, ’cause that’s just, just a whole ball of worms or ball of wax or can of worms.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
But this is, we’re in that space, right?

Jason Cosper
Right. Classic themes.

Sé Reed
Where we’ve been transitioning for a long time, by the way,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
from classic, classic press.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
I mean, kind of, to now, I mean, literally classic themes, but to now with block themes.

Jason Cosper
[ tyler droves a theory team by keeping all non-synchronic pieces in an arpeggiated

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And like, there are a lot of hybrid themes that are like, kind of, I make hybrid installations where like, the posts are in blocks, but the pages are not.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So it’s like, it’s this weird time of transition.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I’m comfortable.

Jos Velasco
Si, you reminded me about this block museum, this MOBA museum of block art.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
What do you think about those pieces that are like this cool showcase of what you can do with

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
What do I think about it?

Jos Velasco
blocks? I think it’s pretty interesting to see how they are made. I haven’t been on the page lately,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
but it was like a very cool experiment. What do you think about that?

Sé Reed
about it? I mean, I think it’s really cool. Like, because it’s, I think that it, what

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Sé Reed
it is, is to me, as someone who does CSS, right, and the whole concept of CSS was that

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
it was universal. And then you would, you know, you would drill down to these specific things and change it only, you know, as lightly as possible in the more specific, inner nesting

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
parts of the CSS, right? But I think that the block themes or the blocks, they’re basically

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
like their own little worlds. Like, they’re like their own, like, super hyper styled,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
especially the block themes in the museum, right? Like, so it’s not like you would necessarily

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
use those blocks or use them on different pages. They are themselves like an entity,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
No.

Sé Reed
Right? So yeah, exactly. On the screen is this like amazing like ballerina on a stage, but like I mean I think it’s really amazing that we can use blocks as

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
a palette, as like an art tool, like that’s pretty cool. But these are not,

Jason Cosper
No.

Sé Reed
this doesn’t necessarily like transfer across to a theme. So I’m interested to

Jason Cosper
No.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
see how your, what your thoughts are about that. I actually have a postcard of

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
that one, which is pretty cool. Courtney brought it, sent it to me from WordCamp Europe, the rainbow target. So I mean I think those are beautiful, but are they

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Yeah, I don’t think that those are necessarily practical, but they can make you learn about

Sé Reed
practical? I don’t know. What do you think?

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
accessibility. For example, if you have like this cover block, and I have been recently working on a website

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
that has this transparent header, and a cover block is like the container of all the content,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
like the header, the body, and the footer.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I made it pretty easy to have a gradient to go from black to transparent,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
and then you highlight this main area. Maybe I can share with you the website in a little bit.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
But the thing is that it can give you ideas of what to do.

Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I guess you can mess a lot of your work with that if you don’t know about accessibility,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
because you have a lot of power with blocks nowadays.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
But as long as you use it just to get creative with things,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
there are, I guess, not a lot of limits.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Sé Reed
You know, what you just said about accessibility made me wonder.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So some of those just look like images, right?

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Something you would make on Photoshop or, you know, Procreate or whatever.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
But in terms of accessibility, a block describes what is there.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So in theory, someone could read the code and like, I don’t know, visual, like say someone

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
doesn’t have sight or whatever it happens to be, someone could read that code and

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I don’t know what the word was, like understand I suppose what is being created by that,

Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Sé Reed
by looking at the code in a more, in an easier way even than like SVG which is just like a bunch

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Wow.

Sé Reed
of numbers but in theory you could like be like oh I could theoretically map it out but this is like

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
You know, you could be like, oh look, there’s vivid reds and there’s circles.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Right.

Sé Reed
You know, by reading out this code, you could know that. Radius 100%, you know, color, vivid red.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So you could literally, from the code, get a visual of what is created.

Jason Cosper
This, this brings me.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
This, this brings me back to kind of the original way.

Sé Reed
And I’ve never thought about that before. So that’s really interesting.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I don’t know that that’s what you meant, but that is what I thought.

Jason Cosper
I mean, when I was learning, I’m going to date myself, but when I was learning how

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Yeah. Oh yeah. I still do that. I still do that every day. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right.

Jason Cosper
to like build websites in like 1995, 1996, you would try to figure out how to

Sé Reed
I’m not sure if I’m doing it right.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right.

Jason Cosper
build websites in like 1995, 1996, you would try to figure out how people did

Sé Reed
I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. Oh yeah, I still do that.

Jos Velasco
[Silence]

Jason Cosper
stuff. So you just view source and you’d start picking this stuff apart. Yeah. Uh, this, uh, the, the museum of block art specifically has a, uh, little link

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I still do that every day. (laughs)

Jason Cosper
that’s like, find out how this art was made and then we’ll give you, um, the,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
the code for those blocks. So yeah, you can you can pick it apart, you can import it into your site, and start messing

Jos Velasco
Bye.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
with it. And one of the really cool things about this, I think

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
is that you are doing this with something you already have

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
installed, it’s no additional plugins, it’s no anything else.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
And, you know, kind of one of the reasons we’re here today is we’re gonna we’re talking to hosts about how he has been moving people from kind of short code oriented sites over to the block editor. And having something where you can effectively visit a

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
a website go, Oh, I like how that looks.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Crib the code for yourself, copy and paste it into your WordPress

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
install, not install a plugin, not install like, and then have to configure the plugin or anything else. But you can kind of just pick these objects off of the internet that you like.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
If they’re blocks, you mean?

Jason Cosper
Yes.

Sé Reed
If they are also, you can go pick blocks off the internet,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Right. Right.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
is what you’re saying, not like some random site

Jason Cosper
Sure.

Sé Reed
that’s not built in blocks.

Jason Cosper
But the more we start to build with blocks, but the more we start to build with blocks,

Sé Reed
OK, just clarifying.

Jason Cosper
the more we’re going to be able to start just picking these objects like from,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
uh, sites and go like, Oh, okay. Like I can remix this into a thing that I would like to use.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Um, I, to me, that seems really powerful.

Jos Velasco
>> You know, about — if you don’t want to be worried about copyright, then you can transition

Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Sé Reed
It’s like zine culture.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sure.

Sé Reed
Or like remixes, like early, like, well, it’s still being done, obviously, extensively, but like just when it began, like, you know, remixing, like, sounds together and like

Jason Cosper
Sure.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
taking samples from, like, you know, this song and this song and mixing it all up.

Jason Cosper
Sure.

Sé Reed
I wonder if that involves copyright issues in the future

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
as well. (indistinct)

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Okay.

Jos Velasco
from art to patterns. So we have this wordpress.org/patterns directory

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
[Silence]

Jos Velasco
with a lot of useful pieces,

Sé Reed
Okay, so I have a question.

Jos Velasco
or I mean groups of blogs that are pre-designed

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
and work well. I guess it’s just as a base to start this, they are okay to work with.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
And they are just like literally something

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
that you can copy and paste another meant to do.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I have a question.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So patterns and blocks, both of them to me are, you know, these are components. These are elements on a page. These are content components.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So you know, and the thing that I kind of struggle with in general, and I have actually been doing, made some comments on some tickets that are open about patterns in the pattern

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
directory, is that it’s very disconnected. Like you know, you might pick one, but then you’re like, “Oh, I want some other, you know, I want to call the action pattern that matches this one.”

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And you can’t necessarily go get that.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And so there’s a lot of like, you’re bringing in these different styles, you’re bringing in these different settings, you know, something’s got this font or something’s got, you know,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
this margin or whatever. And you’re mixing that up. So kind of bringing this back. So it’s not just about blocks, right?

Jos Velasco
Okay. So, in my case, I mostly use the default method. I’m not going to use the default method.

Sé Reed
We’re talking about block themes.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So I, and as someone who’s done a lot of work of this conversion, like, how do you differentiate Like where, what’s the theme component?

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Are you just using like straight up the default theme? Are you using, you know, what is,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
where does the theme part come in

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
versus the pattern or the block? Right.

Jos Velasco
I mostly use the default WordPress theme.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I try to use that 2023 one because it

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
comes with some patterns and because it has a lot of attention of the users.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
And it supposedly has a lot of attention on accessibility

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
issues also. So for me, it’s like this base start.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
And since the site editor already

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
has this ability to include CSS without using a plugin.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
And that CSS, you can see also in the back end.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
That, for me, has been this game changer.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Instead of relying on external components, as you mentioned,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I’m muted, but I was going to say, this is really the fact that you’re using the default

Jos Velasco
not only layouts, but also functions that you assemble.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I guess for me, that’s the best way to start. I don’t even use child themes anymore.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I try not to. So if I, yeah, you’re muted. See?

Sé Reed
theme, right, to create whatever. And that also, you

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
know, child themes, which were a huge thing, and like the only

Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
way to build out and like kind of time preserve, you know,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
like, protect your site against future updates, like, for themes that would update and have, you know, maybe code overwrites or

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
whatever style overwrites. It’s really changing that landscape, Like, so you’re, you don’t even need other themes.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So it’s not even like themes, it’s just theme.

Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Sé Reed
So at what point does that theme just become WordPress

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
and then patterns and blocks, you know, are the styles?

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
We’ve, yeah, we’ve had this discussion before.

Sé Reed
We’re gonna endlessly have this discussion.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
I remember when, right.

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jason Cosper
But I remember specifically when Matt had his, his missive of he wanted,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
What is a theme?

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
what was it? A thousand block themes in the directory by some particular timeframe. We were just like, but with,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
with Gutenberg, with the block editor, with full site editing, you don’t

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
necessarily, we’re getting to a point, right? What is the theme?

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Right, exactly.

Jason Cosper
We’re getting to a point where we don’t necessarily need,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
like you have these kinds of very cool themes that you can pull off and they’re

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
very like single purpose and everything else. And you’re like, Oh,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
I want to throw together a site that shows like when I’m performing shows,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
like say you’re a live actor or whatever, and where I’ll be.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Like there’s a theme that they have that’ll do that. You can, you know, move stuff around on the block editor real quick and easy.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
But for the most part, like if you’re building a site, you don’t need 2023,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
2024, eventually we’re going to get to this place where it’s just going to be theme.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
You just, yeah, right.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
The site editor. Well, it’s just, it’ll just be the site editor, right? And then there’ll be the baseline.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So I guess you could then add on like presets sort of, right? So that would be a theme.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
A theme would be like, you know, it is a JSON file, but at a certain point everyone’s just going to stick all the stuff in the JSON file. Like it’s not like everyone’s going to go to everyone else’s JSON file

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
and start taking all their components and just sticking them all in there, right? So you’ve got a giant JSON file that can do anything.

Jason Tucker
Have you guys ever…?

Sé Reed
And then, like, it’s really about, it becomes about presets.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
That’s like, that’s what I kind of keep concluding.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Like it all is, this is like the beginning styles. You want this site to start with, you know,

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
a sans serif font.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And like I said, margins on, you know, whatever. And it’s, but if you can change all of that

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
from the install, you know, and that part, that all of that stuff is totally flexible.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
I just don’t even understand anymore.

Jason Tucker
I have something real quick here. Like, have you ever built a content management system

Sé Reed
Yeah. What, what, what?

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
that has an entire infrastructure around it? And then at some point, a bunch of people build stuff

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
that make money to do stuff with it. And then you end up essentially taking away

Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Jason Tucker
all the things that you don’t actually need anymore,

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
like themes, maybe even like plugins at some point.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
And then all it ends up becoming

Jason Cosper
Yeah

Jason Tucker
becoming is just like font selection and color selection and locations of

Jason Cosper
You Yeah

Jason Tucker
things that are floating around on the page. That’s what happened.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
So, so it’s like, yeah, yeah.

Sé Reed
I mean, I feel like that’s what’s happening. It’s like, yeah.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
You paint yourself into a corner and then that corner is not perfectly 90

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
degrees, you know? And now you’re like, what do I do? Well, I guess what we do is we just make it so that,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
that people can customize things using these, these things. But by the way, we still need to have the themes because the themes are how we make money and we

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
still need the hosting to have the themes to make the money. And so you,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
I don’t know, I feel like we painted ourselves into a corner,

Sé Reed
Well, but no, I think that it isn’t about the themes anymore, and that’s why we have

Jason Tucker
but we need a thousand of them or 10,000 or whatever it was he said.

Jason Cosper
[Pause]

Sé Reed
the hosting wars.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Well, I mean, honestly, that’s just 10,000 different JSON files with some different style

Jason Tucker
Well, yeah.

Sé Reed
takes. Like, you can go to the Word… We were looking at, in our little group message chat, we were looking at the WordPress.com

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
themes that are available, because that’s where all of the block themes are…

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Mm-hmm Yeah

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
a lot of block themes being developed and they are so opinionated. They’re the most opinionated themes I’ve ever seen in my life. They’re the exact opposite of the default

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
theme. They’re sort of like the block museum, right? Where these blocks are like, this is

Jason Tucker
Well, yeah

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
not a block for all people. This is a rainbow circle, a rainbow target thing. This is a ballerina dancing on a stage. That’s not an applicable block to everybody, right? Even

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
it’s just built from a block. So it’s really like really turning everything into Legos and it’s like

Jos Velasco
You know, yeah.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
do you have what color Legos do you have in your your pack of Legos and then…

Jos Velasco
But yeah, that’s like the first thing that you think when you, yeah, when you say the word

Jason Tucker
And they’re all painted on the side.

Sé Reed
Legos yeah and it’s like are you you can buy a pack right those Lego packs that are like build

Jason Tucker
And so you’re only looking at it from the side.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
locks are just like Legos, like from the start. Yeah. So, I would like

Jason Tucker
Mhm.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
you know, Hogwarts or like build, you know, an X-Wing or something. But you can build that or

Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Jason Tucker
Right.

Sé Reed
you can build something else completely. You could build some sheep and a little farm if you wanted

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
to with the X-Wing pack, you know? You don’t, like, it’s not, you don’t have to build that.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
And so I think that is, you could also build the X-Wing with just generic Legos. You don’t have to

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
have the X-Wing pack to build the X-Wing, right? So like I just I feel like and we’re not talking

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Sé Reed
about this technically enough probably for Dead Branch because you know I love to talk about things like philosophically but at a certain point what I’m trying to say is I don’t what

Jason Cosper
Yeah Yeah.

Sé Reed
is the theme again like what is it? It’s not. It’s a collection of patterns perhaps.

Jos Velasco
So that’s what I wrote.

Jason Cosper
Yeah

Jos Velasco
Yeah, so that’s what I wrote like this little video

Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Yeah Yeah

Jos Velasco
to have some little tech like details.

Jason Cosper
Yeah

Sé Reed
You have a video?

Jos Velasco
So I was just, yeah, yeah, you know, I, yeah.

Jason Tucker
Yeah, he’s showing on the screen right now.

Sé Reed
Like a video to share?

Jason Cosper
Silence.

Sé Reed
Like in, like, I feel like we should roll in a–

Jos Velasco
I mean, it’s just my screen.

Jason Tucker
It’s on the screen.

Sé Reed
oh, this is your video.

Jos Velasco
Yeah, I see this.

Sé Reed
Oh, I thought– [laughs]

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Okay, so I’m just like showing you a little way to,

Jason Cosper
[PAUSE]

Sé Reed
I totally know what’s going on in my own show. It’s cool. Fine. I really legitimately did not realize this is a video.

Jos Velasco
I mean, I’m going to rewind the video real quick.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Sé Reed
Folks who are on the podcast, there is a screen share going and it looks like Jason or Jason

Jos Velasco
OK, so you can see that in this case, I have like a slider.

Sé Reed
are just, you know, as they do, just scrolling through something, but apparently it’s actually

Jason Tucker
[COUGH]

Sé Reed
a video. So why don’t you tell us what’s actually going on here?

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I hate sliders, but I had to because I must–

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jos Velasco
I mean, I wanted to try the performance, and actually it’s pretty good.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Like nowadays, even if you use like a slider or a regular gallery, like an image gallery,

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
or even this is like a sample gallery with tabs,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
with some tabs. These tabs are using this lazy loading script. So even if you have like a ton of tabs,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
it works like amazingly fast. So I don’t have like any other plugins, just this one installed. And this is like a library of lock theme,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
What’s the library called?

Jos Velasco
I mean of lock plugins. But I guess it loads like pretty fast. That one is the Spectra one.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Sparkle.

Jos Velasco
No, the, yeah, Spectra. But in this case, what I wanted to mention is that

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
we have to move from themes

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
to what will be like the best way to showcase our work or the content. Like in this case, it’s like almost the same.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
I mean, those are always like a group, I mean a container with child blocks.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
And this is the core one.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
From the sidebar you can edit like little details, like, you know, add a link and all those kind of stuff.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
But when you are using a custom plugin,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
that’s when things start to become a little bit weird.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Like you still have this parent and child blocks,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
but then for example,

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
if you want to have the same kind of function

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
to show like the most, the biggest kind of image,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
you will have to insert it instead of using it as a background. And those are like the little details that you will have to take into consideration.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Like when you use maybe like this tabs block

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
or tabs plugin, what you end up doing is like,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
you have this thing that is called, when you, I forgot the exact word,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
but you start having accessibility issues if you don’t take into consideration

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
the height of the container. So for some of these blocks,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
you will have to learn.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
I mean, the developers will need to learn

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
how to add these global styles, like to have some way to start making things easier

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
for the people that really cares about accessibility and not just clutter all the options in the cyber,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
you know, or make your own UI because when you update,

Sé Reed
Everything is in the sidebar. We’re like in sidebar mania.

Jos Velasco
Yeah, if everything is in the sidebar, yeah, that’s something bad.

Sé Reed
Sidebar loser.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
We have a sidebar in our sidebar. Actually, we have tabs in our sidebar.

Jason Tucker
And then there’s an aside.

Sé Reed
And then there’s the list items, the list thing,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
which is just like, I mean, I understand how to use it.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
It’s just, I don’t understand, like, it’s the sidebar thing.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
It’s like, even just, we’re not rebuilding.

Jason Cosper
Yep.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
we’re rebuilding the UI of the admin, the dashboard, probably to look more like the site editor,

Jason Cosper
Yep.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
full site editor and all of those components, right?

Jason Cosper
Yep.

Sé Reed
Because we’re blending that in, but I am,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
and it’s not about the design or the colors or whatever,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
but it is about the sidebars, honestly,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
these panels that are just like endless,

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
endless things with like dropdowns and extenders and things.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And it just like, instead of the, you know,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
something like Divi, right, where you’re doing all of that stuff on the page.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Instead you’re just doing that like in your sidebars. So a certain degree it

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
isn’t the front, like the what we’ve been always trying to get to of the editing

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
on the screen, right? It’s still abstracted from… you can edit on the

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
block, obviously, but you can’t do all of what, you know, you were demonstrating in your video there. You can’t go into all the block styles, you can’t go into the

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
list without abstracting from the page. So even though we’ve made it so you’re

Jason Cosper
Right.

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Sure.

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Sé Reed
like editing it while you’re looking at it, it’s really just like we took the

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
customizer and like mashed it into the editor because it’s still there. It’s

Jason Cosper
Sure.

Sé Reed
still a sidebar. It’s still multiple sidebar menus. So like I’m, you can just

Jason Tucker
This is what, yeah, this is, this is what say,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
see it better? It’s just integrate like I don’t know how is it like theme options? (indistinct)

Jason Tucker
and I both were trying to figure out when,

Sé Reed
Oh my God, please.

Jason Tucker
when this stuff was going on early on,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
on is that like we came from, you know, both Divi as well as Beaver Builder and, and the Beaver Builder side for me was like, why can’t I customize the margin?

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Why can’t I change the global color that’s going to be used on everything?

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
And talk about opinionated, a lot of these, a lot of these blocks back, you know,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
when they first, when people were start first starting to do blocks,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
they were all coming up with their own ways of doing things like, Oh,

Sé Reed
I wouldn’t let you do anything. Yeah.

Jason Tucker
“Oh, here’s my own color picker.

Sé Reed
Oh.

Jason Tucker
And you can only pick the colors by CMYK.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
You can’t pick the colors by RGB.”

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
And you’re just like, “Why? Like, what’s going on here?”

Sé Reed
Well, and the default color picker is still a bunch of clicks to get,

Jason Tucker
And I, you know. It’s true.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
get like it’s gotten a little bit better in terms of like now if you click the

Jason Cosper
All right.

Jason Tucker
It’s true. Yeah.

Sé Reed
the button it does excuse me it does open the hex so you can put the hex in but you’re like literally you have to click you have to click open the sidebar

Jason Cosper
Right.

Jason Tucker
Mm-hmm

Sé Reed
you have to click to the styles panel you have to click into the correct thing

Jason Tucker
Yeah

Jason Cosper
OK.

Sé Reed
you have to extend it then you have to open the code this is a boring thing that I’m saying because this is how many steps it is like

Jos Velasco
You know why? See, that’s why we will have these commands from the command palette.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
So if everything, in case you can’t find it, you will just have to type and search and you will jump.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that it’s so much the getting there

Jos Velasco
[laughs]

Sé Reed
that is actually the problem, it is that it is so abstracted.

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Sé Reed
Like, it isn’t, like, I feel like that’s what the goal was,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
was to create something that was like editing on the page.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
was, you know, and like this, this doesn’t feel like it is that to me. And I, you know, I’m not critiquing this from a should it exist standpoint. I’m just saying, you know, it looks kind of similar.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
One of the things that I, we, we got, I mean, this is great.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
What we do is get on tangents. What is a podcast, but if not going off on tangents but one of the things that

Jason Tucker
(laughs)

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
was interesting when a host was showing off his video that I noticed is as he

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
was showing it off, he showed off a gallery of images first, then he showed

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
showed off a kind of like a slider, and then tabs, and he

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
ran Google Lighthouse metrics for each one of these things.

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
[AUDIO OUT]

Jason Cosper
And the the gallery of images, or I’m sorry, the the original large gallery of like full size images loaded up very quickly within like, well, I think the load time for Lighthouse was like point five seconds. He added a slider which sure. So,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
We also, those images were probably optimized.

Jos Velasco
No.

Sé Reed
Sorry.

Jos Velasco
No.

Sé Reed
Just from the WordPress photo directory?

Jos Velasco
And those were from the photo directory. That’s other place where you can grab without having problems with copyright. Yes, full width.

Sé Reed
Oh, right. I stand corrected.

Jason Cosper
so he he Yeah, he grabbed those images full width from the

Sé Reed
Okay.

Jos Velasco
Bye.

Sé Reed
– Stan corrected.

Jason Tucker
[LAUGHTER]

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
directory. But sliders, which again, host host said he’s not a

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
fan of, I’m not a fan of like, we, we all kind of, you know,

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
have our problems with sliders, but the performance of, of using

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
a slider in something like full site editing and the block editor, the the load difference on that in the Google

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
Lighthouse score from point five seconds to point seven seconds. So you’re just getting like point two seconds of additional load time on this

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
thing because you’re using a slideshow of these large, like full width images,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
because it’s lazy loading, because it knows to only load the images like when

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
they’re needed. So you’re, you’re getting

Sé Reed
>> So wait, isn’t that — that’s core, right?

Jason Cosper
right.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
That’s not in the theme.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
And that’s just now core WordPress, right?

Jason Cosper
Right. And that’s, that’s the thing that is kind of remarkable to me, as much as I don’t like sliders, that we have managed to only add sliders, which for so long, with sorry, I’m going to trash them. I always do revolution slider again and again. You know,

Sé Reed
Do it, do it.

Jos Velasco

Jason Tucker
(laughs) (laughs)

Jason Cosper
Revolution Slider historically would add so much load time to a page because they’re loading just

Sé Reed
Quit.

Jason Tucker
(silence)

Sé Reed
Don’t talk about BigQuery that way.

Jason Tucker
Okay.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
this crap, unnecessary JavaScript. They’re, you know, building off on top of jQuery, which is already bloated and just nasty and everything else. And we’ve gone and taken

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I want to hear that J query is only is not by default a problem.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Yeah, but see, the problem is everybody, everybody deploys it very poorly.

Sé Reed
It is only in how you deploy it. We should have a conversation about it, I guess.

Jason Cosper
95% of developers.

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Okay.

Jason Cosper
It’s it will. Yeah.

Sé Reed
Or, like, redundantly, at least.

Jason Cosper
The latency isn’t that great, but once you actually have it, it’s yeah, it’s, it’s pretty

Jason Tucker
I send, I usually send it on a USB thumb drive.

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jason Tucker
That’s how I usually give it to people is via USB thumb drive.

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
It’s, it’s much faster.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
(laughs)

Sé Reed
I’m not here to be a short code apologist in any way.

Jason Cosper
snappy. But it’s just remarkable to me how using this thing, again,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
traditionally using something like slider revolution using whatever other slider stuff you have, this is something that we have traditionally been building using shortcodes. You know, these galleries, these

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Bye.

Jason Cosper
Not at all. Short codes, not even once. No. Sure. No.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Not at all. I’ve never thought that was okay, even if I use it sometimes, because I have to. I mean, in reality, that’s kind of just, I mean, essentially, a shortcode is just a code injection,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
you know? So like, it’s not, the reason it’s quote-unquote bad is because it’s a code injection

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
short codes, short codes were just a, were just a product of their time.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
into content instead of programmatic code injection. But in theory, all of a website is is code injection.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Like, right, that’s like, like bringing stuff in. So a bridge.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
So I mean, now there’s just other ways to bring that data in, right?

Jos Velasco
You know.

Sé Reed
You can use other ways to merge that stuff.

Jos Velasco
Bye.

Sé Reed
So it’s not like a short code itself,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
again, was not the problem. So like jQuery itself is not the problem. It’s how that short code was used or overused. You know, it’s not like PHP is a problem,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
but when people took PHP plugins and put them inside of the content, then that’s when it was the problem. Anyway, I have a quick question for you, host, if I may.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
On your notes, which you so delightfully prepared for today’s show that we just like to obliterate,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
preparation is not our on-brand for us,

Jason Cosper
No.

Sé Reed
but you did mention the transition.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And so that’s something I definitely wanted to hit on because again, that’s where I started this whole thing, is we’re in this transition time. So if you’re transitioning people,

Jason Tucker
(silence)

Sé Reed
are you just straight up transitioning them

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
to the default theme and then customizing?

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
What is your approach to this? – Yes.

Jos Velasco
Yeah, it depends on the project, but whenever I can use the latest one, like right now,

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I’m starting to see the GitHub for the 2024 theme, it’s already open.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
It doesn’t have anything, but I’m already subscribed.

Sé Reed
I’m so excited. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Jason Cosper
(laughing)

Jos Velasco
So I just change to the latest one and use that. to use it. Of course, because that’s more money for me. No, I’m just kidding.

Sé Reed
So wait, hold, please. So let’s say you deployed a site last month,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
it’s using 2023, it’s a conversion from whatever. When 2024 comes out, are you gonna port that site to 2024? (laughing)

Jason Cosper
(laughing)

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Jason Cosper
[LAUGHTER]

Jason Tucker
– Nice, love that.

Sé Reed
Hold on, that’s actually kind of hilarious.

Jason Cosper
[Pause]

Jos Velasco
So it’s here? No, I will just stay with that one. But when

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
There was this, I don’t know the exact name, but it was like the first, one of the first full editing blocks.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
It was not even full, like I included the header and footer

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
like using reusable blocks, like, I don’t know, you know, sync blocks, but right now,

Jason Cosper
Mm-hmm.

Sé Reed
Think patterns, think patterns.

Jos Velasco
oh yeah, sync patterns.

Sé Reed
I think themes are essentially going to be

Jos Velasco
Yeah, and we didn’t talk about that, but I would really start like,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I would love to see what would partially sync patterns will look like.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Like those are going to be like amazing, I guess. Have you heard about that?

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Sé Reed
a default style set and pattern collections. Leslie, and then very kind of, you want to have like strong,

Jos Velasco
[AUDIO OUT]

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
strong controls, strong presets, so that if you bring blocks that aren’t part of, or patterns that aren’t part of that,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
that you can override the external styles with the styles of your existing site. So like, I don’t know, they all say important or something. Just kidding. (laughing)

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
And just for the converting.

Sé Reed
– Without doing that, that’s like, that would be good, right? Like that would be,

Jos Velasco
I guess we’ll take another round.

Sé Reed
because you don’t want to bring in some random pattern

Jos Velasco
>> Yes.

Sé Reed
from WordPress.org,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and then it’s like completely different than your existing theme, right?

Jason Cosper
Right.

Sé Reed
So that’s really where I’ve been struggling

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
in terms of patterns and theme.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
It’s because like I’ve built with Frost, but it didn’t have the patterns I needed. So I brought, I went to the, you know, the pattern directory.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
I was like, let’s try out the pattern directory, right? Brought some in, and it’s like a whole, It’s like if you add in a template that’s got like stock photos from like some random,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
you’re like, now I’ve got all this crap in here that is, that I have to go and like strip out.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
So I don’t know how that, like the theme or the preset styles needs to be strong enough

Jos Velasco
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Right.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
to override those or to have some sort of function where it can, you know,

Jos Velasco
Okay.

Sé Reed
do I want the, these block styles to be overridden by the theme or something like that? so that the theme really does take precedence. Because right now, the pattern and the block don’t really care what your theme says at all.

Jason Cosper
It’s it to, to go back to that, uh, Lego, uh, analogy, uh, having

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
these kind of disparate patterns. It’s like saying, okay, I’ve got a bucket full of Lego in front of me.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
(silence)

Jason Cosper
Uh, I am going to build Frank Lloyd Wright’s falling water house. Uh, except all of my Legos are from, uh, the castle collection, the pirate ship

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
collection, and the space collection.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
And you’re, you’re, you’re working.

Sé Reed
Exactly. We don’t have any water blocks at all.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Sé Reed
Jason Cosper
You’re, you’re working towards this idea that you have in your head, but you’re, you’re picking all of these parts from stuff that just does not go.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Right.

Jason Cosper
Um, that I, I think that, um, we’re in for a really interesting time in, um,

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
kind of and maybe a slightly painful time in theming as people, you know, have

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Mm-hmm.

Jason Cosper
patterns that they like, and they’re just like, Oh, I use this on all of my sites, even if it doesn’t fit in this opinionated theme that I picked off of wordpress.com slash themes or whatever, like, Oh, but I found this really cool

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
pattern that I like, I’m going to try to make it work. And then

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
it you know, it’s, you’re just jamming it in there until it

Sé Reed
Right. I mean, that’s essentially what you’re doing, right?

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
fits. It’s like, hey, I really I really love those shoes. Yeah,

Sé Reed
Or you’re just putting it in there and stripping it all down.

Jason Cosper
I really love those shoes. But they’re only available in a 12

Sé Reed
Like, I will put this shoe on.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
and a half and I’m a 13. And you’re just jamming your foot in

Jason Tucker
Yeah.

Jason Cosper
there trying to trying to get it because you really just yeah yeah

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
That’s exactly what it’s like. it’s like, it’s what it feels like because then you have different preset

Jason Cosper
oh yeah

Sé Reed
styles if you’re bringing in, I mean I was never a fan of template parts ever

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
I was told not to use it. [laughs]

Sé Reed
like literally ever. I understand them but people have used them into like a you know like for example if you’re using if you’re trying to customize the

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
event calendar, I don’t know if anyone here has ever tried to customize the event calendar, you’re literally it’s parts inside parts inside parts inside

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
parts inside folders inside all the different components plugins folders which are also

Jason Tucker
[Silence]

Sé Reed
different and some of them are named in different styles because one was created you know 10 years

Jason Cosper
[PAUSE]

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
ago one was created three years ago so like it is like you open up these files and it’s literally

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
like two lines it says go look at that file i’m pulling information from that file and at a certain

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
point like even the template patterns like and the template parts that starts to get confusing when when you have all of these different components.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
So it’s like, which part, what’s a template part

Jason Cosper
And.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
versus a pattern versus a synced pattern versus a block? And where are the styles?

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
What is the theme?

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Like this is, to me, there’s no clear delineation between any of these parts. And while we, people who deal with WordPress all the time can look at it and figure it out,

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
or just be like, oh, it’s, you know, use this for that.

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
I just got in a conversation two days ago with a client

Jason Tucker
(laughs)

Sé Reed
about whether something was a page or a post

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
for like 10 minutes.

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
So these people are not gonna be like,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
is this a pattern or a page?

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
It’s definitely not for the user.

Jos Velasco
And you know, posts and pages, posts and pages are the same.

Jason Tucker
(laughing) (laughing)

Sé Reed
Well, they aren’t the same.

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Technically.

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Sé Reed
I mean, they’re the same in terms of how they produce,

Jason Tucker
(laughing)

Jos Velasco
(laughs)

Jason Tucker
(coughing)

Sé Reed
but they’re not the same on the backend

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and how they are categorized,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
how the person interacts with them, how, and you’re not gonna, I mean, you could have pages come through, you know, into it out of a little dynamic block, you know,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
[PAUSE]

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
where you’re pulling it. Sure, you can pull pages, you can pull posts, but the default is that posts act, you know, in a different way than pages. So that’s actually kind of the exact same thing

Jason Cosper
43 minutes in and we finally got to our bong rip moment.

Sé Reed
that I’m saying, right? Like posts and pages have always been pretty like, is it a post? Is it a page? What do I know? Right? And now it’s like, is it a block? Is it a pattern? Is it a theme? It’s like, are they all the same thing? like which part’s the pattern part which you know.

Jos Velasco
What is WordPress?

Sé Reed
What is WordPress?

Jason Tucker
[LAUGHTER]

Jos Velasco
(laughing)

Sé Reed
Like we’re just like deconstructing it and pretty soon

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
What is WordPress?

Sé Reed
it’s just gonna be like Matt standing on a mountain. And it’s just like that’s the story. What is, what are we even talking about?

Jason Cosper
What is WordPress?

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
So here’s why people Marines hang.

Jason Tucker
Yeah, to kind of go along with the analogy

Jason Cosper
Yes.

Sé Reed
Is it software? Is it people? Is it a concept? I don’t know.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
that we were doing here, I was thinking more along the lines of, you know when you go to Disneyland land and each one of the, each one of the people in the different, the different lands, they all have different costumes.

Jos Velasco
You

Jason Tucker
It’s a very specific costume to the area that they’re in.

Jos Velasco
You know

Jason Tucker
When I go into the patterns directory and look at those patterns,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
I feel like I’m taking someone from my Autopia and I’m putting them over where

Sé Reed
Yes. Right. And you’re like, “What does blow?”

Jason Tucker
Winnie the Pooh is. And it just makes no sense. You’re like, why are these two here? These people, like what, what’s going on here?

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Why is there like a pirate guy over here next to like, I don’t know, like small world, like it just, it doesn’t make sense to me.

Sé Reed
Exactly.

Jason Tucker
And so I’m, what I’m trying to figure out is like, yeah,

Sé Reed
That’s a really good analogy.

Jos Velasco
[PAUSE]

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
It’s totally what it looks like.

Jason Tucker
cause you’re not allowed to have these people go to different places,

Sé Reed
[laughs]

Jason Tucker
but apparently you can just go into the patterns thing and grab something with like a huge font and all this really cool stuff and then stick it onto a bunch of

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
flowery things with the damn boat, with the damn boat from, you know,

Sé Reed
I came right in there. (laughing)

Jason Tucker
one of the older themes. It’s just like it,

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
I don’t understand how this is supposed to work when,

Jos Velasco
Jason, what I think, I think that the Museum of Block Art is not really different or that

Jason Tucker
when you don’t have those things talking to each other. Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
much different than the block patterns directory right now. So it’s just like a showcase. But

Jason Tucker
Yeah. [Pause]

Jos Velasco
the good thing is that these patterns are, at least to me, easier and easier to edit,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
like becoming easier. At least you have like this, you know, your defined set of colors

Jason Tucker
Um.

Sé Reed
– Right. You just make them.

Jos Velasco
that you don’t have to go and look everywhere.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
You can just start modifying, and you

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
have these external tools or plugins to complement them. So for me, it’s not a big deal.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
I don’t really use a lot of patterns. I sometimes duplicate– yeah, I make them or duplicate–

Sé Reed
Jos Velasco
I mean, the closest one, or just add some columns.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
For example, one of my favorite blocks is the group one, but with the variation that is the row.

Jason Tucker
Mm-hmm.

Jos Velasco
So you can have these little logos side by side.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
And these things that allow you to use advanced CSS right now without having to worry about if it’s

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
compatible with browsers or not. So I think– yeah.

Sé Reed
But wait, so this is something I don’t actually know,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
and I should probably know this, but I don’t.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
Does the most recent version of the block editor have a CSS editor like what was in the customizer

Jos Velasco
You have two fields, like the general CSS that overwrites everything.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
where you can actually specify classes and styles, or is it just the CSS class assigner where you can assign certain classes to blocks?

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
But even in the global styles panel, you can customize each block.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
So you can overwrite only that block. And it’s not like a big file of CSS. So it’s getting pretty flexible.

Sé Reed
So it’s like the customizer. I was tracking for a while on somewhere in the community,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
[Silence]

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
in the track somewhere, the CSS conversation. I think it was in the Full Site Editor channel

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
and talking about losing that CSS component,

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
that in admin CSS component, ’cause you can always create a style file or a JSON file or whatever, right? But you couldn’t for a long time.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Yeah, it’s the custom CSS, so you can put it in there.

Jos Velasco
– Yes, but you are using less and less CSS.

Sé Reed
All right, thanks, Courtney, since 6.2,

Jason Tucker
[inaudible]

Sé Reed
I’m definitely updated.

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
But that was a, I mean, that’s for developers or CSS folks, right? It’s not like the average person developing a site

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Sé Reed
is trying to go in there and add CSS.

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Sé Reed
That’s just something we needed in order to have additional control.

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Sé Reed
No, no, I’m so mad ’cause CSS is the coolest.

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected] [no speech detected]

Jos Velasco
of the UI. No, not you. I mean, like, as a — yeah. Yes. What I mean is that you can

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Sé Reed
Like CSS does so much cool stuff

Jason Tucker
[no speech detected]

Sé Reed
that I just don’t understand why we’re separating ourselves from CSS for freaking React

Jason Tucker
It’s the application.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
Yeah

Sé Reed
and the stupid, stupid Facebook open source software.

Jason Tucker
We just need an accessibility menu in the in the settings

Jos Velasco
do that from the site editor. A lot of the things that you used to have a lot of CSS,

Sé Reed
Yeah, well.

Jason Cosper
Right.

Jos Velasco
now it’s like less and less. You don’t need that much to have a cool design, I guess.

Jason Cosper
Right.

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Like you do on an iPhone where you can then go and do all the cool things that you wanted to be able to do.

Jason Cosper
>> Right.

Jason Tucker
You wanted to have the little menu that pops up

Jos Velasco
Yes.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
all the time on the screen that you can tap on ’cause your button broke on the phone or any of those kind of like weird little things. They hide it all in accessibility, which is like what Courtney’s talking about over here.

Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
It’s like, can the main thing be about accessibility? I mean, yeah, it kind of should.

Sé Reed
I mean, I think we’re trying, well, I mean, I don’t want to speak too broadly,

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
but there are a lot of people in the community focusing on making sure that core is accessible and, you know, the extended part, like all the plugins or

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
additional themes or whatever, like those may or may not have that component. And I don’t, I don’t, I have heard, I don’t know, I’m not an expert on this,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
[PAUSE]

Sé Reed
but I have been told that there are still a lot of core accessibility problems. So it’s not just that layer of developers and block developers

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
or whoever’s building stuff that’s causing the accessibility issues. It is the actual core, you know, UI and layout that is doing that.

Jason Tucker
How complicated it is to do the thing, yeah.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
I mean, it’s more complicated for us even.

Jason Tucker
Jason Cosper
um…

Sé Reed
Like, I mean, I don’t know, somehow, somehow it is more complicated

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
to go in there and like hand select all of these options, you know,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
And I don’t, I kind of don’t like, I liked doing CSS, right?

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
And I know that’s not as accessible to everyone who doesn’t do development, but I do feel,

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
I don’t know, even more abstracted from development as I’m in there just like clicking, you know, a margins tab that is like literally like a scale box,

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
you know, unless I change it to like being specific numbers. Like it is a very, it’s like a Fisher price control panel,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
(laughs)

Sé Reed
right?

Jason Tucker
(laughs)

Sé Reed
just the beginning thing, it’s like, yeah, it’s like, it’s the

Jason Cosper
Duplo.

Jason Tucker
– Yeah.

Jason Cosper
Heh.

Jason Tucker
Yep. (sobbing)

Sé Reed
Duplo blocks, that’s true.

Jason Tucker
[LAUGHTER]

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Because it’s like, you know, just wiggle this and it’ll be small, medium and large. And it’s like, what are we, like, I, like, that is

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
accessible, so I probably shouldn’t complain about that because it is taking that, that level of design control and giving it to someone who doesn’t understand what the difference

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
between PX and EM is for font sizes, right? So like, I get that. But I do feel like it is, I don’t know.

Jason Tucker
– Yeah. – Only if all the blocks support it.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
I don’t know if that matters, honestly. Like, does, you know, I think honestly,

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
designers should be more concerned about this than developers because under the hood stuff,

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
the functionality, like that’s still all really important. Like that part is all still complicated and there’s a lot going on and there’s new languages

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
that are being tossed in there all the time. But the design component is being simplified, you know, sort of like the Canva of websites, right?

Jason Cosper
[AUDIO OUT]

Jos Velasco
Silence.

Sé Reed
Like that is what’s happening here. So really less developer concern

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
than theme creator and designer concern. Because if everyone is able to just, you know, modulate their stuff, which they probably should be able to do, Anyway, that’s just my thoughts. Doo doo doo doo. We’ve gone way overboard.

Jason Tucker
>> We have.

Sé Reed
I’m so sorry for all of my jabbering as per usual.

Jason Cosper
We have, yeah.

Jason Tucker
Oh, darn, we have to have them on again?

Jos Velasco
Bye.

Jason Cosper
And, and host host produced like a multi page document and I think we only scratched about 15% of it.

Sé Reed
I tried to go back.

Jason Cosper
What?

Sé Reed
I tried to go back in. Oh shoot, we didn’t talk about Chili Kili’s.

Jason Tucker
Is that what you’re saying?

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Yeah.

Sé Reed
We didn’t talk about Chili Kili’s.

Jason Tucker
[laughs]

Sé Reed
You like literally made an entire like outline.

Jason Tucker
No, because then we’re setting like a level of expectation,

Sé Reed
I think we should put the outline in the show notes

Jason Cosper
Thanks,

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
thanks,

Sé Reed
so everyone can understand just how far away

Jason Cosper
yes,

Sé Reed
from Host’s vision that we got. I was thinking more than it would,

Jason Cosper
uh huh.

Jason Tucker
and I don’t want to set a level of expectation.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
[laughs]

Jason Cosper
Throw.

Sé Reed
the level of expectation would be like,

Jason Tucker
All right.

Sé Reed
you can make these plans, but we will take your plans and we will just pop them out the window.

Jason Cosper
Sure. Sure.

Jason Tucker
I’ll just make sure that the links aren’t clickable.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
With love though, with love.

Jason Tucker
So you have to actually highlight and copy and paste.

Sé Reed
Thank you for all your effort preparing it though.

Jason Tucker
That will change the level expectation. We’ll definitely do that.

Jason Cosper
Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
Well, yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for coming and hanging out with us.

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
We really appreciate it. And for the folks that hung out in the chat, thank you very much as well. If you found that this content was interesting,

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
we do this show, DevBranch, once a month. It’s the first Friday of the month. And that’s when we put this type of show out. So if you’re wondering like, wow, they’ve only done 30 episodes.

Jos Velasco
Jason Tucker
That’s actually a long time. It is monthly.

Sé Reed
If it’s monthly, it is.

Jason Cosper
Right.

Sé Reed
Jason Tucker
Yep. Yep. So again, thank you all for coming and hanging out with us.

Jason Cosper
Right.

Jos Velasco
Jason Cosper
Jason Tucker
We really appreciate it. Here is our outro.

Sé Reed
Thank you.

Jason Tucker
And one of you need to actually say the words.

Sé Reed
Oh well. Oh yeah.

Jason Tucker
Here we go.

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
Okay Spotify, YouTube. I guess we’re on that Facebook thing.

Jason Tucker
Sé Reed
We don’t go to Instagram. Anyway come chat with us

Jos Velasco
Sé Reed
in the Discord because that’s kind of just the best. Like let’s

Jason Cosper
Sé Reed
Let’s chat, especially since the Slack, make Slack instance is going away.

Jason Tucker
Jos Velasco
Sé Reed