EP438 – Content Creation for a WordPress Brand

[00:00:00] Jason Tucker: This is episode number 437 of WPwatercooler Content Creation for a WordPress brand.

[00:00:18] Jason Tucker: I’m Jason Tucker. You can find me at Jason Tucker at the Simeon Rodeo on Mastodon, and you can also find me on my website.

[00:00:27] JAson Cosper: And y’all know who it is. It’s your boy Jason Cosper. Fat Mullenweg, back at it again on the World’s most influential WordPress podcast.

[00:00:34] Jason Tucker: Speaking of podcast, go over to Apple Podcast, audible, Google, Spotify, and you can even go hang out with us on Discord. Hey, how’s it going? We have a friend on the show. How’s it going, doc?

[00:00:51] Doc Pop: Howdy, y’all. I’m excited to be here. Yeah, Jason, it’s great meeting you. And we spent half an hour talking about old video game phones and engage and side talking. We’re good. We’re all caught up.

[00:01:02] Jason Tucker: all caught up. Ko, you wanna give us a quick little intro?

[00:01:07] JAson Cosper: I was actually gonna let Doc do the talking. Yeah. One of, one of my former coworkers over at WP Engine known doc for a few years now. And he has really been doing a great job with the podcast that he’s running over there. Doc, why don’t you tell the audience a little about.

[00:01:24] Doc Pop: Yeah, actually I wanna say that it’s good to see you again and it was really fun reading the description y’all had. You had a really good bio. I think I’m just gonna copy paste your bio. It mentioned that I used to do radio and stuff, things that I don’t even remember talking about before. But yeah, I have been working with WP Engine.

[00:01:40] Doc Pop: For seven years on the Torque Mag team. So it’s really just been like the two of us for the most part working on that. And it is WP Engine is our employer and we are our own standalone thing. I’m sure a lot of people are from a WP Tavern very similar relationship there.

[00:01:55] Doc Pop: And as such a, previously would go to Word camps as like a big part of my job and just try to do as many. Interviews as possible. See if I could get like 10 to 20 interviews at each Word camp and have ’em up before the word camp was even over. And now it’s switched to doing live streams every Wednesday on our YouTube channel.

[00:02:13] Doc Pop: And I just recently took over press this, which is a word pr WP engine podcast that David Vogol used to run and was originally started by Yos DeVol. So those are what I’m working on.

[00:02:27] JAson Cosper: Great. Yeah. . So you have while you have worked primarily on torque, do you ever get pulled into WP Engine writing and stuff like that? Occasionally. Like blog posts there or do you just mainly docs 24 7 is torque.

[00:02:41] Doc Pop: I would say 99% of the stuff I do is torque. And every now and then, they’ll maybe ask for opinions or ask for art. Cause I I do drawings and stuff. So every now and then I’ll do that stuff. Quite often my style is very, Unique and not necessarily something that fits with the brand.

[00:02:58] Doc Pop: So oftentimes, they’ve learned , not to rely on me unless they want something that looks like, is drawn by like a child. But the the editor of Torque, Emily I’d say she, she does go back and forth a little more. She wears I think we both feel like we wear these hats and when we’re doing torque stuff, we try to be very ambiguous and, not really talk about.

[00:03:17] Doc Pop: The brand from the perspective of working for WP and J, just covering it as news and covering everything else the same way. But then, you get used to like putting on that hat and you say, okay, now it’s time to write copy for the site and stuff like that. And I think that she does help a lot with that, mostly as of like an editor rather than than writing the copy.

[00:03:35] Jason Tucker: That makes sense. How does, how do you approach that content that you’re writing? Is there guidelines around. Or is there some kind of like how you should be approaching the, content for, do you have to mention the brand? Do you have to mention any of those sorts of things?

[00:03:49] Jason Tucker: And then how do you feel like you try to do that, while you’re doing your content creation?

[00:03:56] Doc Pop: When they first hired me they made it quite clear that this is its own thing. It’s not meant to be like a commercial for WP Engine. And, I’ve had several I’ve, Been there for so long that we’ve had several people at WP Engine who maybe weren’t familiar with that.

[00:04:09] Doc Pop: And every now and then we just remind them like, Hey, we’re not an extension of your marketing. We try to be ambiguous. If anything, the way that we tend to filter ourselves, I would say we. Emily and I are maybe less likely to talk about WP Engine stuff sometimes because we’re trying to be a little bit more ambiguous.

[00:04:29] Doc Pop: That’s just the way it feels to me. Like it, it very much feels we are trying to always work on our reputation of being hopefully perceived as open and neutral. . And so sometimes when we are, covering something like a press release or something happens with Genesis or whatever I think sometimes we’re even maybe nervous about sharing it unless we feel like it’s really newsworthy.

[00:04:47] Doc Pop: I, I think just to go along with that, you, quite often you’ll see stuff appear on WP Tavern that we didn’t even mention because we’re like, oh, if we write that, we’ll be, so it’s a self-censoring fear maybe that if we cover stuff too much, it might hurt our reputation. So I think if anything we, we sometimes tend.

[00:05:02] Doc Pop: Try to shy away from it unless we’re like no, this is like something that would be also covered on any other block. That’s how we try to think about it.

[00:05:09] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Cause I’ve seen other, I’ve seen other brands, not just, not in the WordPress space, but just outside of it, that try to either do a publication or they try to do something that, it may just be like news and new news and noteworthy type content, but they always try to like, get their brand mentioned in it at some point.

[00:05:28] Jason Tucker: And it just it seems like they’re just kinda shoehorning it in. It feels dirty and it’s just oh, what’s going on with this? I appreciate what you’re saying here, where you’re to the point where you’re almost not trying to mention any of the things that you’re, that you know you’re your company is working for or working on yet, it, I don’t know.

[00:05:45] Jason Tucker: That’s a tough. I don’t know how you guys balance that, but apparently you are, and you’re doing a good job of it. I remember when Torque was first mentioned, I think it was at Word Camp San Francisco. It was like the last one or second to last one or something, and they did a whole thing about it.

[00:05:59] Jason Tucker: I was just like, oh, wow, that this is gonna be an interesting thing. I’m very curious how. , know, a publication like this is going to work. And it sounds for the years that you guys have been doing it I’ve linked to your stuff in show notes that we’ve done and things like that.

[00:06:12] Jason Tucker: And I dunno I love the approach that you’re taking with us, that’s really cool.

[00:06:15] Doc Pop: The one thing we never have to worry about is be because we tend to keep things very positive. We never really have to worry about oh, they’re only saying these things about a different company because it’s a different company. We’re not we’re just overall trying to spread good vibes, so at least.

[00:06:27] Doc Pop: At least that’s been super easy. We never, talk about like negative stories with other folks and then worry about how, like, how we’re perceived because of the owners of us. That’s one of those things that, I we watched W p Tavern do, and we’re just like an awesome times of wow.

[00:06:40] Doc Pop: They’re just really they, they’ll talk about automatic or they’ll talk about whoever, and they tend to do it pretty freely. And like on our side, I think the way we just figured it was just like, oh, let’s just keep. Just. Positive and cover news and tutorials and stuff like that.

[00:06:51] Doc Pop: And I think, over the years we’ve also searched for what is our niche. If it’s not gonna be the place you go for like drama because, it’s it’s inherently drama free on our site. What are we trying to do? And, we’ve struggled that.

[00:07:03] Doc Pop: Throughout the years of oh, we’ll be the community place where you can find a, house word camp and see photos and stuff like that, or it’s tutorials and stuff like that. We are still always like looking for that. But the one thing that I don’t think we’re even good at it in general, like to be drama, right?

[00:07:17] Doc Pop: To do that stuff. We’re just we’re not so good at writing, the tweets that get people’s attentions and stuff like that and in terms of that. So we’re in awe when other places do that, but that’s not our specialty. We just keep things like. Announcements and tutorials and things like that and hopefully more of a educational resource I think is currently our goal.

[00:07:32] Jason Tucker: Yeah.

[00:07:33] JAson Cosper: Are you familiar with the McElroy brothers? They do. My brother and me, they do a bunch of different podcasts. They have a rule on their podcast, no bummers, like they do a question and answer. Like my, that’s what my brother and me is for anyone who’s listening or watching who’s not familiar and they really like, they won’t answer like a bummer question.

[00:07:55] JAson Cosper: And it seems without even knowing about it, that torque has implemented the no bummers role where it’s just Hey, we’re gonna talk about stuff, we’re gonna cover things, but we’re gonna try to keep it positive. And I think that speaks to the longevity of torque keeping that going.

[00:08:14] JAson Cosper: Because if , a lot of other folks companies might try to throw a publication out Tucker was talking about earlier. And let’s just Shoehorn our thing into there let’s promote our products in there. I can think of one off the top of my head that is still actually pretty active, but they’re always promoting their own very large fleet of products and they.

[00:08:37] JAson Cosper: It it’s so weird where it’s like oh, what’s the number one form plugin? Oh, it’s the one you guys have. And just having that whole thing on your end and being much more and trying to be much more neutral about that, and understanding that your reputation can take a hit when it comes to things like this.

[00:08:57] JAson Cosper: I think that’s really. I remember I was at WP Engine Win torque first spun up, and I’ve, it, it it’s gone a little bit more from, I remember a lot of those early posts were, in the same vein, but just a lot of like technical tutorials, things like that. Things that got engagement.

[00:09:16] JAson Cosper: I, I’ve just really as I’ve seen torque grow and, come into its own over the past few years I think honestly of course you guys are still getting traffic and everything, but I think it gets slept on a little bit. I think that people some people do like to get caught up in the drama and get caught up in that, but I think that’s a great message to be like, Hey man, we’re just trying to keep it positive.

[00:09:38] JAson Cosper: We’re just and we’re trying to keep. The voice of the company that pays the bills like out of the way for the most part. So I.

[00:09:46] Doc Pop: and

[00:09:46] Jason Tucker: imagine has to be tricky when you have to essentially talk about the competition. Now that’s, you Torque is owned by a web hosting company and other web hosting companies now own other WordPress products that are not web hosting companies, but rather actual like plugins and SaaS products and all that sort of thing.

[00:10:07] Jason Tucker: So you almost have to get really good at being able to talk about. , even a competitor’s product because we look at it as just a product. But from the marketing side of each of one of these companies, they’re looking at as Our competition has a rival form plugin If we’re just gonna use form plugins as our generic here a rival form plugin and oh, we can’t talk about the rival form plugin.

[00:10:28] Jason Tucker: And you’re from looking at it they just gave out this really cool feature. It sounds great, I wanna talk about it. And you just talk about it. And I think having the ability to have that separation between the. or the parent brand and your ability to just talk about whatever you want.

[00:10:43] Jason Tucker: I think that’s, I think that’s really cool. And it, it sounds like a great way to, to do that if you’re essentially sponsored by the company but not fully influenced by the company. How do

[00:10:53] Jason Tucker: you feel about that when you’re doing that?

[00:10:55] Doc Pop: I was just gonna say for better words, it seems like a lot of these really useful plugins and tools are becoming part of bigger brands. Oftentimes those are gonna be hosting, but not always. We’re seeing some get, eaten up by theme sites or whatever, but eaten up, that’s a bad word.

[00:11:10] Doc Pop: Cuz it’s they’re getting health, employment, they’re getting benefits. They’re like, like in a way it’s maybe better for the ecosystem, but it’s harder to avoid that. As things go on, if something cool comes out, it’s probably under, a technical competitor.

[00:11:23] Doc Pop: And I have always come from before I was working for Torque I was working for a couple Y Combinator companies and they were just always into this not frenemies, like cool operation was a huge thing. There was never you could teach me. I like, as a literal example, it had an app that I worked for.

[00:11:42] Doc Pop: How’d you to send postcards from photos on your phone? Take an Instagram photo, send it does a postcard. This was like 15 years ago, early days of Instagram and as part of covering the, the content for that and like doing photo walks and promoting that my employers were like, Hey, these other guys are doing the exact same thing we are.

[00:11:56] Doc Pop: let’s team up and let’s do this stuff. And I really like that. And so that’s definitely been a vibe that I’ve gotten since I’ve been, working in tech is that, you can always kind of work together. And, it’s not gonna look bad. It’s not gonna be weird. So it’s really, no, it’s, there’s never any time where I’m like censoring myself.

[00:12:12] Doc Pop: Oh, do we talk to these people because they’re owned by, this other company however, I think that in the WordPress space and maybe it’s just like in different, like careers, maybe in like sales or something like that in the space, some of those people do get shocked when they’re finding out that they’re talking to me.

[00:12:27] Doc Pop: Like to like, oh, torque is owned by WP Engine. I don’t think I could talk to you. And th that’s never been a thing that’s ever come up on my side and in other careers I’ve had doing this exact same stuff. I’ve never had someone say oh, I can’t talk to you because you work for a competitor.

[00:12:41] Doc Pop: And that, that’s only happened a bit. But it’s it is weird when that happens. But as far as like us covering stuff, that’s just the way things are gonna be. Things are every new thing that seems like it’s gonna eventually work for one of these fewer and fewer companies at the top.

[00:12:54] Doc Pop: And, the, that’s not. Stop the way that we cover or think about things.

[00:12:59] Jason Tucker: You would also not have anything to talk about if you couldn’t talk about a competitor, , you’re like, so contact form seven just came out with a really cool feature, like that would be, you wouldn’t have anybody else to talk about. The, that, I don’t know that would make the ecosystem a very boring place to.

[00:13:16] Jason Tucker: And the community at large, just not being able to cover any of that sort of thing.

[00:13:19] Doc Pop: And no one’s ever asked us to do anything either. I wanna say that too. It’s been super easy for me and it’s easy for me to say oh, just don’t worry about that. But that’s largely because of we have these kinda like firewalls in place or whatever, where no one’s ever said, Hey, you can’t cover that.

[00:13:32] Doc Pop: And so it’s not even on my

[00:13:34] Jason Tucker: that’s super apparent from the, just reading your content, it’s very apparent that they’re not approaching you saying, Hey, we have this new thing that just came out. I want you to go cover it. Go write 300 words about it, or a thousand words about it or whatever. Cosper, you were about to say something.

[00:13:48] Jason Tucker: Sorry about that.

[00:13:49] JAson Cosper: No. So even with all of these different plugins, themes et cetera, getting rolled into the competition, rolled into things like that. Just generally both hosting companies and some other plugin companies have just been like on.

[00:14:06] JAson Cosper: Freeze lately. But I, I think I know that torque has been doing this for several years now. Every March to coincide with March Madness. Y’all do plug-in madness. And I’m sure that is a time of year for you where you’re just like, ah, because, everything is you’re having multiple tiers of voting and all this other stuff.

[00:14:26] JAson Cosper: But I’d really be interested to, to hear a little bit on how you organize. Plugin Madness every year. Cuz I, again, I know you post content, I know that you’ve, you host shows. But plugin Madness is its own unique thing in the WordPress world. And before Twitter started to blow itself up, every year you follow enough WordPress people and in, in your timeline, it’s just plug-in madness.

[00:14:49] JAson Cosper: Plug-in madness, plug-in madness.

[00:14:52] Doc Pop: Yeah so plug-in madness. I think we started five years ago. This year I think is gonna be our sixth year, 2023. And what we do is in February we open it up to nominations and oftentimes we’ll get about. 200 or 300 nominations and lot of duplicates within those. And sometimes the denomination suggestion is also the same URL email as the thing they’re nominating.

[00:15:15] Doc Pop: Which is totally fine. Like we I, I think we should be fine promoting ourselves and bragging about ourselves that we’re proud of stuff. But for the most part, like it’s been a good way to Get the goal is to get underdogs, some representation, and they might not make it to the final round, but it just being in there and just being in the marketing section or in the the e-commerce section might help them out.

[00:15:34] Doc Pop: So once we get those nominations, Emily and I go through and we try to make sure they meet some qualifications. Have they been updated within the last year? Do they have more than a thousand installs or, 10,000 active installs or whatever. We’ll have like certain rules that we, we do just to of weed out.

[00:15:50] Doc Pop: Stuff that unfortunately might weed out some very new competitors. And we try to keep keep in mind that like some folks getting started could really use the advertisement and they are genuine good products. But we try to set some standards and then each week in March, I’m not sure when we’re starting next year, but sometime in March we start with 32 rounds of 64 competitors.

[00:16:10] Doc Pop: And then the next week we have it. And we have it. And we have it. And we were using a. A to a bracket style tournament service before and this year we’re actually gonna be using a WordPress plugin that does this. So we’re n nervous, excited about that. It is nice that pay people some money and make sure things go right, but it is also cool to eat the dog food and try doing it entirely in WordPress.

[00:16:31] Doc Pop: And yeah, by the end we start off with like kind of these broad sections, and this is actually one of the parts that people really struggle with the most, with plug-in madness, is that we have these. Four categories of e-commerce and marketing and maintenance and optimization. And in the beginning you can okay, these two are similar.

[00:16:48] Doc Pop: These two are similar. But as weeks go on, sometimes you’re like, why is this form builder up against an optimization thing or whatever. And PE people just don’t seem to understand how bracket. Work and how we can’t like, shape that, right? We don’t want to like, manually go through and put things to each other.

[00:17:04] Doc Pop: We let the voting happen. But yeah the best part for me is that final four, where we have the best e-commerce and the best optimization and the best maintenance and the best marketing, going up to head, cuz anyway, that’s like first in their class. And just a personal highlight for me over the years of doing this is like I actually have found.

[00:17:21] Doc Pop: Plug-ins that I never heard of that totally like there, there was one post Duplicator and I think now there’s like maybe three post Duplicators. Yost has a post duplicator, but five years ago I, I write a weekly segment for Torque and every single time I’m like, God, I wish there was a way to just duplicate this and then just update these few things.

[00:17:40] Doc Pop: And I found one through Plugin Madness. So that’s, to me, that’s my favorite moment of Plugin Madness is just

[00:17:44] Jason Tucker: That was the mvp.

[00:17:46] Doc Pop: Yeah, . Yeah. They didn’t win. They didn’t they didn’t make it like I don’t think they made it to the second round, cuz they’re unknown and it does popularity does have to come into it at a certain part, like near the end especially.

[00:17:55] Doc Pop: But yeah, the it, it did put them in front of me and hopefully other people learn about some of these small plugins as they’re of going and boating.

[00:18:04] Jason Tucker: So Koper, could we do a fantasy football for plugins?

[00:18:12] JAson Cosper: I would have to think about

[00:18:14] Jason Tucker: And would it be just a bunch of like you, you have to build your own web hosting company and then you have to go out and try to find all the plugins that you’re gonna to acquire and then just put ’em, just line them up and then whoever wins docs March Madness. That’s it.

[00:18:31] Jason Tucker: That’s how it works.

[00:18:33] Doc Pop: The beginning we did have people who were like writing forecasts and I really wish we knew how to work with that more. But in the beginning we had people who were like, here’s my predictions for round three. And yeah. Oh, that was super fun. Gosh, I hope that happens again.

[00:18:45] JAson Cosper: Yeah I would say not fantasy football, but just even filling out. Just your own bracket. Like here’s, like that’s a tradition during a March Madness style thing. It was just like, here’s what my favorites are. That was something I, I participated in in, at a few workplaces was like, okay, give us your March Madness picks and if you’re good on this, like you win the pot.

[00:19:09] JAson Cosper: Like the basically the person that like called it all the way down to the team that took it. , you win the pot. And of course money doesn’t need to be involved. But just filling out brackets and being able to be like, I was right. I know that there are plenty of people in the WordPress community who just want to hear that they’re right.

[00:19:27] Jason Tucker: Just make everybody put a banner on the top of their website that has to link to yours for six months and that’s bragging rights right there,

[00:19:36] JAson Cosper: Oh man. Yeah.

[00:19:38] Jason Tucker: man. I, that that’s really cool to have those sorts of things. I was just looking through your site and some of the stuff that you folks have done over the years and just trying to make oh, it’s like you’re just, you’re adding more to. And using things that are outside of the norm look, I’m looking at like torque tunes for instance. Like these are things that are just like outside that no one else is doing, but you’re doing them and it’s just like another thing to add to. Just the cool collection of stuff that could show up on your, on your site.

[00:20:07] Jason Tucker: And people are gonna link to it and they’re gonna love it. And it’s, I dunno, it’s cool. I love that you guys have, all of these different pieces that are all tied together and just making it so you have more content that’s that’s unique in, in the space.

[00:20:23] Doc Pop: Torques was suggested by one of our readers. They were like, Hey, you should have editorial cartoons. And I draw cartoons. So yeah, that was a fun thing we got to do. And, a lot of the things that we do we’re given a lot of flexibility like I said before, I was going to Word camps and covering interviewing people.

[00:20:38] Doc Pop: And on top of that, I might get to make a fun video when, WordPress has a big anniversary or some big milestone and I might get to make a 32nd video that we put on Twitter or something like that. It’s been. It’s been super fun for a cr creative person that just dabbles in everything to be like, one of two people working for this magazine and given a chance to like, oh, draw some tunes.

[00:20:57] Doc Pop: Hey, make these videos. Hey, write a song for this. Hey,

[00:21:00] Jason Tucker: Come on. This is

[00:21:01] Doc Pop: and it’s spooky.

[00:21:05] Jason Tucker: Good job. Good job, doc. I love

[00:21:06] Jason Tucker: it.

[00:21:07] Doc Pop: you.

[00:21:09] Jason Tucker: So how would you describe, how would you describe this to someone who does this type of work for someplace else? How would you tell them to approach either management or the editor or whoever?

[00:21:19] Jason Tucker: Just saying as this really cool talent, I play ukulele, I want to write songs about The thing, like how would you like explain that to someone in order to, approach their management to, to say, I wanna do this kind of off the wall thing, yet I’ll totally tie it into what it is that we’re doing here.

[00:21:34] Doc Pop: large part of it for me has come down to just luck that, the managers at a company might be like, oh, this looks fun this looks like it could work for us. And I think a lot of companies have those sort of people and a lot of companies might have people that are like, oh, that doesn’t.

[00:21:49] Doc Pop: Makes sense. That’s not on our, list of things. So it doesn’t really make sense. So it, a part of it could just come down to luck, but large part of it comes down to company culture. And hopefully if your company culture is pretty awesome then all you would need to do is occasion be like, Hey, I’d like to.

[00:22:05] Doc Pop: I’d like to do some stuff for this. We had people on our marketing team at WP Engine that were really into stop motion animation or something, and so they would find the right people for us, a lot of that would be maybe internally, we have a lot of it’s a large company. We have our own internal marketing, where we’re doing videos for ourselves that we watch every Thursday for like town halls or whatever.

[00:22:24] Doc Pop: And so that’s a place where people might be like, oh, I saw this person wrote a song for town hall. I’d like to do the same thing. Luck does come down to it that I’m lucky to work for a company that, that seems to make it very easy to be able to contribute that stuff. And then on, on top of that I just, if you don’t have that job to start with, you could just try offering to contribute, things like that.

[00:22:44] Doc Pop: Probably internally, if you’re in a large company the internal marketing maybe is the easiest way to you know, cause they’re always looking for free labor. For people who are like and they don’t care as much. And on that side, they’re not gonna care as much about like, how do, how does this ukulele singing go with a product?

[00:22:59] Doc Pop: outside. So it’s a good chance to test the market and kind of do stuff and if you do it that way, working internally and doing stuff that people don’t really care if it gets shown outward too much. Then occasionally they might start using you. They might be like, oh, this is actually a really cool direction.

[00:23:12] Doc Pop: Let’s embrace this more.

[00:23:14] Jason Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. The, in the intranet always needs news too. Like that sort of thing. Matt, I know we’re gonna, we’re gonna wrap up here in just a moment, but like Matt himself, Matt, Mullenweg used to do, and he probably still does these, but the, what’s in my bag sort of situation where it’s just Matt’s known for traveling.

[00:23:29] Jason Tucker: And so he would go and write stuff about what he puts in this bag. Now, mind you, most of the things are like way out of like my price range. I’m not gonna spend $900 on a toothbrush, but he has those things where he of collects ’em and does them. I was looking on your guys’ site and you did one recently where it was like, your word camp travel tip of take these and don’t take these.

[00:23:48] Jason Tucker: Those are just like things that are just, it. It’s just enough to just show that there’s like fun stuff that you could talk about be relatable and that, someone is going to end up looking for, a travel tip on Word Camp and they’re gonna find your content, which ended up being funny, but it was cool, it’s Find those sorts of like creative ways of tying in the brand with, what it is that people are either looking for or would just think is a fun thing to see.

[00:24:17] Doc Pop: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t bring your trumpet to word. Word Ks. You’re not gonna, that’s a lesson I learned the hard way after years of going to word camps. Lemme tell you, you’re not gonna use that bugle as often as you think you are.

[00:24:29] Jason Tucker: Doc, thank you very much for coming and hanging out with us. We really appreciate it. And we’ll have links to all your stuff in our show notes, so feel free to go take a look at that. Over there, doc where can people find more about you and just like all the fund adventures that you’ve you’ve been up to.

[00:24:42] Doc Pop: Like my personal stuff is all in doc pop.org d c p o p.org. I couldn’t get that.com handle, but yeah, you can go to the about section there and you’ll see links to my Mastodon and YouTube and everything else on there. And then torque on Twitter is the torque mag at the torque mag. Again, we couldn’t get Torque Mag, but at the Torque Mag, which makes us more definit.

[00:25:05] Jason Tucker: Perfect. Hey, thank you very much for hanging out. You have a good one. See y’all later. Here’s our outro. So streaming over on the Fed averse as well. So feel free to go take a look at that. We have links in all of our stuff over in our show notes. Thank you very much, doc, for hanging out with us. Talk to y’all later. Bye-bye.