EP372 – Cloudflare APO for WordPress

Jason Tucker 0:08
It’s episode number 372 of WPwatercooler appeal for this episode is brought to you by ServerPress, makers of DesktopServer. They make local WordPress development easy. Check them out at ServerPress.com

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So good morning, everyone. How you doing today? Yo, what’s up? Hey. So say in her, in her wisdom, stated what is CloudFlare?

Sé Reed 0:59
That was the preshow and I was joking, I know what CloudFlare is.

Steve Zehngut 1:10
according to Wikipedia

Jason Tucker 1:14
CloudFlare. So yeah, so CloudFlare recently put out a statement saying that they’re going to be launching this, this new APO system. And they’re going to be doing this for all the different applications that are out there, which is an automatic platform optimization.

Sé Reed 1:30
I was gonna ask what APO what I was like, Wait, is that like a new API that I missed? So I thought

Jason Tucker 1:37
I don’t be the smart one this time instead of Steve reading from a website.

Steve Zehngut 1:42
Don’t Don’t reveal my secrets. It’s all it’s all up here. It’s all right here.

Jason Tucker 1:49
Poor guy can’t remembers and kids names but hey, you know, whatever. So one of the one of the features of it, and I actually just went and installed it and got it all set up on WPwatercooler. Just to check it out. Because in the past episodes, we had, we had some guests on who we’re looking at a water cooler, and they’re like, have you ever ran a speed test on this? I was like, Yes, yes, I have it. They’re like, Well, have you ever looked to see what the heck’s wrong with it? And I’m like, Oh, I know what’s wrong with it. And there’s a lot wrong with it. So I thought, what I would do is do what a typical person would do is a new thing would come out, I’d click on the button and say install it, I’d give them $5. I’d hit the Go button. And like Cosper was saying, is it a silver bullet or not?

Sé Reed 2:41
Have we ever tested that before? I like that, like just do it like super no customization, just out of the box, see if something works?

Steve Zehngut 2:47
Oh, I thought you’re talking about drinking a Coors Light.

Jason Tucker 2:52
women, women, right.

Steve Zehngut 2:57
Before we go there, I was gonna say if you want to run a similar test to what Jason was looking at, right, one of the sites that I recommend working up your site, right, one of the sites that I highly recommend is web.dev. So web.dev, right?

How do you spell web?

W e b, I just just in case, I spelled it just because in case you couldn’t hear what I was saying. So web.dev will give you a pretty comprehensive report on what’s going on with your website. But it will also break down in plain English, you know what the issues are. And so the aapo API addresses, I know we’re going to talk about some of these things, but it addresses things like time to first byte first contentful paint speed index, right? And so this measuring tool, web dev will give you it at least it’ll tell you what’s going on your website so that you know what you’re addressing.

Sé Reed 3:51
How is this different than the Google page speed?

Steve Zehngut 3:54
So this is more comprehensive than Google PageSpeed Insights. So the So Google PageSpeed Insights gives you really talks about performance, right? This also, this is also gives you accessibility best practices and SEO. This is basically the front end call of what’s called light house.

Sé Reed 4:10
Right Right

Steve Zehngut 4:11
So Google’s, Google’s measuring tool for this stuff is called lighthouse. You can also do this in inside of the chrome inspection tools, right? So if you are developer This is just available for you inside of the chrome tools you can hit you can go into lighthouse and generate a report but but if you’re not this will give you some good insights as to what’s going on your website

Jason Tucker 4:29
is so SEO is not speed up your website apparently. Who would have Thought?

Steve Zehngut 4:35
I did not.

Sé Reed 4:38
Like I literally did not I don’t ever look at that to be like, what’s new in developer? This is not enough, apparently. Cosper.

Steve Zehngut 4:46
Now I was I was also gonna mention that lighthouse is available for Firefox if you are a Firefox user. So the Chrome team has done a really good job of making that tool available, just not on occasion. No wait on more than just Chrome.

base and pull up that screenshot again. Wow.

Jason Tucker 5:05
Yeah.

Steve Zehngut 5:06
Didn’t did it. So when I’m doing site analyses, I know I don’t want to take too much time here. But those things in the box right underneath the scores, those are the those are, those are some of the first things I look at. Right? I’m saying no,

Sé Reed 5:23
like, seems like you read a box.

Jason Cosper 5:28
Right there. Let me

Sé Reed 5:29
read the words. Not

Steve Zehngut 5:31
there. Right. Right there. So so you’re so you’re getting, you’re getting pretty negative marks on Your Time to interactive and your largest contentful paint, as well as your speed index, right. And so, so APO is going to address these things head on.

Sé Reed 5:44
I just used largest contentful paint in a report to give to someone to present at a strategic planning meeting. And they were like, what, and remember, like, new fun term, you have to tell everybody that doesn’t mean anything to anyone who’s not developing things.

Steve Zehngut 5:58
So it actually it actually does, it actually does mean something right. So yeah,

Sé Reed 6:04
but the reason why support random people, and they’re like, why can’t I have my giant picture on the front? And you’re like, yeah, contentful paint and they’re like,

Steve Zehngut 6:13
and LCP is new right so LCP was introduced into the into the this indexing in late May of this year, so it’s very new. And so anybody that has a large hero image at the top of your top of the site automatically gets dinged on the LCP score. Right. And, again, if you didn’t, if you haven’t changed your site for years, you were affected, as soon as Google turned on this part of the algorithm. And it just it happened in late May, early June.

Sé Reed 6:41
I’ve been telling all of my clients that we’re doing new designs for that they can’t have hero images anymore. It’s a fun conversation. And then explaining it when not everyone is caught on and everyone’s design aesthetics are five years old. And you’re like, no, but you can’t have this anymore. Because accessibility, because because largest contentful paint and they’re like, what, what are your words?

Steve Zehngut 7:07
The New York Times when it when right before LCP score, change the new york times change their article pages, they took their feature image off of the off the top of the article page, they moved it down to about halfway down the article page, right? So the page just starts with a headline and text. And then the feature image is below the fold so that LCP score only affects stuff that’s above the fold, right? And so if you, if you if you read the New York Times, and notice this change, that is why they made that change.

Sé Reed 7:34
Also, you’re a geek, if that happened, I just want you to know that’s not telling you that you are there,

Steve Zehngut 7:40
there actually, there actually is a quick way around this. I know I know, we’re off on a tangent, but Jason, if you pull up realestateshows.com, I’ll show you there actually is a way to do a hero image and get around the LCP school.

Sé Reed 7:51
This is what we talked about last time, I asked if there was a way to get around this, there is no answer. And now you have an answer for me,

Steve Zehngut 7:58
I do I have an answer for you. So if

Jason Cosper 8:00
I ever do.

Steve Zehngut 8:02
So if you put the image in a box sitting next to a headline like this, rather than have it, covering the entire background or bleeding off the edges. This helps to improve that LCP score because we’re using a much smaller size image. All right. That’s it. The other thing we did if you go to zeek.com, really quick, is we had a we had a large image in the background of the hero. Yeah, now, I’m tooting my own horn here. But so, so, so big. In the background of the we believe the future of computing, right we we actually had a picture of a guy drawing out a schematic, right? And it was it was a very large image, the LCP, the LCP algorithm doing this about 25 points just for having that image. So what we did is we just replace it with an SVG background.

Sé Reed 8:50
Can we talk about how much better that looks than the screen out picture to like this, cool, like, this looks crisp. And also, you don’t have to worry about having any sort of, like type of demographic in a picture. Like it cuts down on so many other issues to just really focus on that. Plus, you get your main message right there. Like this is a better design approach than your hero with image on it.

Steve Zehngut 9:19
It also improves your ADA compliance scores. Yeah.

Sé Reed 9:24
Everything like

Jason Tucker 9:27
so one of the things that they mentioned in this, which is interesting to me is that they that cloud flares, edge network will cache third party fonts. What I think is pretty, pretty interesting.

Unknown Speaker 9:42
Box is what I fonts, fonts,

Steve Zehngut 9:46
fo NTS

Jason Tucker 9:49
apologies. I’ll make sure to make sure I use a lot. Sorry.

Steve Zehngut 9:55
I’m in a spelling mood today. Yeah.

Sé Reed 10:01
Do you have no IMT

Jason Tucker 10:04
to be able to install this and kind of get it set up, I already had CloudFlare set up, I already had CloudFlare working on the site, I went on to the homepage of the page for CloudFlare on my site, and I went and clicked on the Apply recommended CloudFlare settings for WordPress. And then after that, I clicked the little on button that turns on the automatic platform optimization. And then I cleared the cache just because I mean, it’s the three things that are on the page, I might as well do all three of them. And then then before I did all that I ran, I ran a test to give me what my scores were going to be. So I can kind of do a comparison live on the show. And the thing is, is like, I know that the site has issues, and I’m okay with showing you guys this because it’s it is what it is. But But looking like this is I believe this is before I ran it. I mean, the numbers don’t change. Yeah. Okay. So no, this is before I ran it. So I ran this first. So I had 7.4 seconds. And then if I go down here I have 6.1 seconds. So that’s good. I mean, it’s it’s good or better,

Steve Zehngut 11:12
it’s good or God er, right. And then

Sé Reed 11:19
fell everything. I

Jason Tucker 11:20
also did one over here on pingdom. Just so I can run a test on this as well, just to kind of see what the differences were. So I got a 62 over here, and a 62 over here. So there was no no change there. I also did a Google Google insights test as well. And I got a 14 and a 16. So,

Steve Zehngut 11:41
so Part Part of the reason that those aren’t changing is probably related to third party scripts and images. Right? So so your design didn’t change even though you you added the stuff your design didn’t change, and your third party scripts aren’t affected by this. So that’s why your scores aren’t aren’t changing that much.

Sé Reed 11:58
Yeah, ready scripts are like the death knell for everything.

Jason Tucker 12:03
And I wanted to I wanted to run this so that way, we could at least take a look and see like, what happens when you throw $5 at a problem? Not?

Steve Zehngut 12:13
Two points. No, you get two points.

Sé Reed 12:16
Yes. That’s like, you’re like 16. Now? Yeah.

Jason Tucker 12:22
It’s like changing your air filter in your car. And it’s the exact same everything. It’s just not a dirty one now. So like, that’s pretty much all that happened. I got like one horsepower out of it.

Sé Reed 12:32
Yeah, it’s analogy

Steve Zehngut 12:34
that I grew up in Orange County, and around the time of people tuning their Honda Civics and stuff like that, and, and a joke, a joke around that. Jason, you’ll probably be familiar with it if you tuned your Honda Civic was that every sticker adds how many horsepower? Was that half a horsepower? Was it a full horsepower?

Jason Tucker 12:56
We claimed five because it made it easier because it’s a Honda so you only start with anyhow, so you might as well.

Steve Zehngut 13:03
Yeah, so just added you just added five horsepower because you slapped a sticker on it.

Jason Tucker 13:08
Uh huh. Exactly. Um,

Steve Zehngut 13:11
but I mean, I looked at the waterfall because you were kind enough to share this stuff beforehand. The waterfall gt metrics, and you shaved about 90 milliseconds off of your initial load. Which you know, is is good. I mean, that’s that’s a that’s definitely a positive year. Where’s the WP water cooler site? hosted right now? WP Engine? Yeah. daep engine. Okay, so WP Engine, like they have optimizations in place that already makes the site pretty fast. If you were hosting the site someplace like Bluehost I mean, I’m sorry that those words even came out of my mouth. But yeah, what the hell?

Sé Reed 14:00
Yeah. AIG property and

Jason Tucker 14:02
yeah, so skater hashtag sponsored. Okay, cater,

Steve Zehngut 14:06
right. So, yeah, if you were hosting your, your site at a kind of bargain basement, inexpensive, well, no cheap host, you might actually have a much bigger impact than this. And that could actually be a net positive for someone who’s only paying, you know, no more than five or $10 a month for hosting throw another $5 at it. And it keeps you from having to upgrade to a managed hosts like WP Engine. So, I mean, this this can be a net positive for some folks. But if you have to do work on your website, throwing this aapo the CloudFlare IPO at a site on a manage house. might not do much. And that’s like kind of proof positive here. There’s some pretty glowing reviews in the WP Tavern article in a few other places that have talked about it. But that’s still, you know that that doesn’t mean much for for somebody who actually needs to make some improvements, maybe we have a future show that we can do around just helping Jason improve the water cooler wipes it.

Sé Reed 15:32
So this is basically just like the CloudFlare difference, whatever. Right? So So what is, you know, would you I don’t think that to me doesn’t seem like it’s worth it. It’s not giving you right out of the box, anything. But is there are there ways that you could optimize that service to make it better? Or is it just that’s what you’re going to get, and you have to redo you know, stuff on your site anyway, or, you know what, like, you just, you can’t like, what you want to avoid, I’m assuming is, you stack your CloudFlare on top of your other plugin to make stuff faster on top of your whatever else you got going on. So like, if CloudFlare and just turning that on doesn’t really do anything. I mean, at the end of the day, what we’re talking about is you really have to go in there and make the actual changes, right, like,

Steve Zehngut 16:18
so you asked a lot of questions there double the caching does not equal equal double the speed. As a matter of fact, double caching is actually bad, right? So you don’t want to double up caching, you don’t want to double up CDN, right? Like you don’t want to have two SEO plugins, right. Two SEO plugins does not equal double SEO. What So yeah, I know, it’s crazy talk.

Sé Reed 16:38
One was one does not equal two and not in this case. No,

Steve Zehngut 16:41
right? But But these these platforms, like caching platforms actually can conflict with each other. Right? And so you, you, you want to be careful there. But to answer your, your broader question, write it things like these these speeding indexes, largest contentful, paint, anything that’s factoring into your PageSpeed score, it’s going to take a combination of things to really address that if you’re if your score is in the dumps. That’s just the way it is right? And server, what we’re really talking about here, the API platform addresses server issues load time, right? So so as Cosper said, if you’re with a good manage hosts, you know, WP Engine, a Nexus, you know, host that has really strong caching built in, these things aren’t going to have much of an effect, because you’re already benefiting from what the hostess is, is putting, you know, putting in place for you. I think

Sé Reed 17:29
that’s ironic, because it seems like the people that would go to think CloudFlare knew my but the people who would purchase a CloudFlare or, you know, service or really even you know, have that on the radar are more likely to be the people who would be on a managed host, right? Like I would think so. If you’re like super cheap, and you’re like maintaining a super cheap server, then are you really looking at like additional, you know, CDN type stuff to speed up your site like, that just seems like

Steve Zehngut 18:00
if $5 a month is double what you’re paying and hosting, right then, then you’re probably on the wrong host to begin with.

Sé Reed 18:08
Well, like, Is this just optimizing trash? Is this Yes, like, essentially, that’s what we’re talking about. Right? So it’s like, is the advice ever Okay, yeah, keep your trash server, but add, clarify CloudFlare, or this new service

Jason Tucker 18:24
will CD into it, you’re getting, you’re getting a whole bunch of extra stuff. Like for instance, I already had the CDN enabled like that, just by using CloudFlare that was already turned on. So least those things are starting to use that piece with this extra five bucks. They’re doing edge caching, they’re doing caching of essentially making your, your page static as much as it can. The hard part is, is when you have things that are dynamic that you’re going to have to have updated. And if you didn’t build it the way that it needs to, hopefully with like JavaScript or jQuery or what have you, that’s gonna help you out a little bit. But when it’s something straight up on the page, you’re gonna end up having some issues.

Steve Zehngut 19:03
Well, okay, so you know, who benefits really from this CloudFlare EPO is like I said, the the cheap hosts, the the ones where it is, it is in their interest yesterday to basically turn around and tell their customers who were like, Oh, I’m having problems here. You can bet your ass that. And that’s a SSD.

Unknown Speaker 19:35
You can bet your Wikipedia

Sé Reed 19:39
arsc but I’m just you know,

Steve Zehngut 19:43
Irish. Yeah. Right. So you can bet your RS that that Bluehost that Hostgator that one and one that GoDaddy, even though they have a managed product that they can push now. They want to do everything they can to keep you on their shitty hosting. And basically, you can bet your ass, you can bet your ass that their support already has something that they said, Hey, you know, CloudFlare has this thing that for five bucks extra you can turn on. And it’ll make your site performance better. Don’t

Sé Reed 20:24
go because they take a $2.

Steve Zehngut 20:27
Break. But Don’t go, don’t don’t go looking at another host stay here. Don’t go looking at WP Engine before you start, don’t go looking at Nexus don’t go looking at kinsta before you go anywhere, let’s try this first. I mean, the sitelock

Sé Reed 20:46
solution, which doesn’t work either, like just slap all this stuff on your shitty server.

Steve Zehngut 20:51
But I agree with everything you said. But let me give you a counter argument. Okay. Right. So the way to think about CloudFlare, right, is CloudFlare is essentially what’s being served off the CDN, it’s doing your caching right. Your websites in that case, if you have CloudFlare in front of a shitty website, right, your website is the source.

Sé Reed 21:15
Any server

Unknown Speaker 21:15
both right?

Sé Reed 21:19
That double up on and it does,

Unknown Speaker 21:21
yeah, right.

Steve Zehngut 21:22
And so all that is is is the source, right? And so that what I mean is the way a CDN works is the first time a page is called or resources called, it calls from the source and it may load slowly. As soon as that happens, that then goes into cash. So then at that point, it’s being served from CloudFlare. So if you if your $2 website or your free website that you got from one of these services, is merely acting as your source and CloudFlare is really you know, what is your your speedy hosts? That’s fine, right? It’s okay. I’m not saying it’s I’m not saying it’s what I would do. Right. But if you’re thinking of it in that terms, and it’s just your source, it does work.

It does. And I will say this, I will give this to the CloudFlare API to one of the nice things about it is it actually broadens your audience as far as like a quick site goes because of CloudFlare and their global coverage. your site will be as fast in Katmandu as it will in Temecula. I often browser Katmandu

Sé Reed 22:28
Yeah, I thought you had some weird aspect to it there like it has caching and a network. No warning to people. That’s just WordPress. Nevermind.

Steve Zehngut 22:38
No, it’s because this is what the customer saying is because the CDN, you’re going to get served from a server that’s close to you, right? So there’s

Sé Reed 22:45
no latency. Right? Right. So that’s, I mean, that’s great. In theory for, you know, global businesses, that’s good.

Steve Zehngut 22:52
Well, if you’re see that this, this all gets thrown out the window, if you’re doing something like a dynamic site, say WooCommerce. Say anything actually selling a product or having to serve a dynamic page. Apa doesn’t mean crap,

though. What I tell my clients in that case is, is as soon as you introduce a login, right? Your cash cash is done, right? You’re no longer cash. So you do at that point, need a strong server, because you’re coming, you’re always coming from source and you’re bypassing the caching and CDN.

Jason Cosper 23:26
So yeah, to go to

Sé Reed 23:27
inside, outside, you could still be using the

Steve Zehngut 23:30
cache, right? Absolutely. Your marketing site, right. Yeah. Your marketing site absolutely is gonna benefit from the cache. Commerce membership subscription, any that scares

Sé Reed 23:40
you already have those people’s money.

Steve Zehngut 23:45
But but that but at that point, at that point, you do need to be on a fast server. Yeah.

Sé Reed 23:53
This argument that is like, yeah, use this if you’re on it, like, just don’t stay on the shitty server. Like, why are we saying that to people like, just because people are stubborn and don’t want to move?

Steve Zehngut 24:02
I need a place to put my cap log. I’m not making any revenue from that. Right? Even. My cap was just a hobby for me, and I’m not getting any revenue. I’m gonna use I’m gonna use my free hosting.

Jason Cosper 24:16
There’s plenty of them out there.

Sé Reed 24:18
Yeah. I mean, if we’re gonna say like, if it’s like, okay, you just need a shitty service. I use wordpress.com. Like, what is the? I don’t? I don’t personally, I have a

Steve Zehngut 24:27
ferret blog. But yeah, you know, same difference.

Sé Reed 24:31
Yeah, I just, I feel like I feel like it’s like mixed demographic still, like the people who are on that, you know, old self hosted site or not the people who are optimizing with CloudFlare API. So it seems to me like there’s like, there’s a there’s a I mean, and obviously CloudFlare is probably done some business analysis. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem to me like those same target markets. Like it doesn’t seem to be Right, right. overlap there.

Steve Zehngut 24:57
You’re right. There’s a cow, right. There’s there’s a gap people who are doing this as a hobby aren’t even going to understand what we’re talking about. Yeah.

Jason Tucker 25:06
potplayer aapo is, right now it’s only for WordPress, but you look on their website and all of the marketing tools say, this is the first application that we’re going to be applying this to whatever the next one is what they’re gonna end up doing next. So I can see where like, if they were to find a way to essentially turn this into yet another checkbox that you throw out on your web host. And it just says, like, we’ll optimize your thing for $3. And then the web host, you know, kind of gets a little bit of an extra deal, then what’s, what’s the big deal? But, you know, I always go back to what you say, say is the is the fact that somebody has to go through and do a couple of hoop jumps to get to this point. So for me, I had to like install a plugin for CloudFlare, which means I’d had to set up CloudFlare, which meant I had to set up DNS,

Sé Reed 25:58
not a simple thing.

Jason Tucker 26:00
No, no, I mean, the three of us, not Steve, but the three of us could do this in our sleep. So

Sé Reed 26:07
catalog person, which is who this is, like that? Are they even doing it? Or At what point? Are you just like, Are you hiring a developer to install CloudFlare? or Are you hiring a developer to optimize your site properly? So it loads separately anyway, like, in terms of advice we are giving to people, I would say, hire the developer to fix your site so that the site doesn’t have a problem, not just slap another solution in between your site and the web at large like that, to me seems like, you know, if you’re going to do this solution, I mean, I guess a developer, obviously cost more than $5 a month, but that’s just the add on price anyway, right? I don’t know, I’m not I’m not schooled on this service, because I don’t know,

Jason Cosper 26:49
either.

Jason Tucker 26:51
Which is why I was like, oh, I’ll spend the three minutes to go throw this in here. Let’s see what happens. And

Sé Reed 26:58
it’s one of those instances where it’s like, capitalizing on people who are just gonna keep throwing $5 at something, and they’ll keep throwing $5 at something until they’re paying $100 a month in all these different services, when they could just pay, you know, 150 bucks and get totally optimized servers. Like it’s that type of thing. You know, that’s what it feels like, to me, like, subscriptions that you forget about, you know, like when you signed up for Hulu, and it was free for the first month. And then you’re like, I still subscribed to Hulu, like that.

Steve Zehngut 27:30
There are services for that, but let you know, if you’re paying for stuff that you’re not using.

Sé Reed 27:34
Is there one on that? Is there one for web stuff? I don’t know. Or is it just for cable? Because we need I need I need that many things. I need that service. Sorry.

Steve Zehngut 27:45
To touch on a couple of things. I know that basically, yeah, there are some hoops you have to jump through right now. But I remember shortly after CloudFlare became a thing that dreamhost had a one click button that you could hit and basically put CloudFlare on your site. It handled all the DNS, and everything else. It wouldn’t surprise me if these inexpensive and cheap and crappy hosts turned around and had a button you can hit to help you turn this on.

Sé Reed 28:22
As a crappy host. I was like,

Steve Zehngut 28:24
No, no, I don’t think they’re inexpensive, but they’re not crappy.

Sé Reed 28:30
Now they’re not. They’re not that well, I guess they have the shared stuff too. So

Steve Zehngut 28:34
also, to touch on another thing, since we only have a minute and a half here, you talk about and this is to go completely off topic. You talked about do we have the services to let you know that you’re still paying for something, I use this thing, it’s called privacy calm. It basically creates virtual credit cards that you that are single use that get tied to a particular service. So I have Hulu on a privacy card, I have this on so and then basically, after, if I ever want to cancel my service, I can cancel my service. But if they make me jump through too many hoops, I can cancel my privacy.

I’ve been getting I’ve actually been getting clients paying me recently through one use credit cards, right? That’s how they are doing now instead of eftps.

Jason Cosper 29:27
Where

Sé Reed 29:29
they’re paying, you

Unknown Speaker 29:31
know, we’re talking

Steve Zehngut 29:32
about large transactions. We’re not talking about small transactions, but single use credit cards has become a thing this year.

Sé Reed 29:40
I wonder what that’s about besides just the being able to cancel your stuff. It’s just it’s just a safety security measure.

Steve Zehngut 29:46
I so yeah.

I started using the service about two years ago after the target leaks. So it was one of those things where it was like Okay, so now it’s And the nice thing is, is it’s tied to a single vendor. So I can say if that card is burnt, I don’t have to reset the attached card to everything else. It’s It’s so nice it’s a it’s a free service. I’m sure that they’re, you know, selling your data at

Sé Reed 30:17
alarm bell any

Steve Zehngut 30:20
any any potential prospects that are listening to this, there’s a 3% fee for me taking credit cards, because I have to pay those fees to the credit card company. Just Just a caveat. And with that,

Jason Tucker 30:30
the show once they thank you very much for all of you for hanging out and you know, looking at what $5 get you so good to work through that. So there we go. Here’s our outro you have a good one.

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